主题：【原创】一场没有硝烟的战争：在《经济学人》留言板上发生的一场论战 -- 厚积薄发
家园 献花赞一个 如果真要搞翻译，可以发我几条：）
家园 可惜人的思维很难转变 peng和小妞能在多大程度上扫除或减弱他们的无知、误解和敌意，很可存疑……
很多辩论，如果不是从善意的角度去理解，很容易被加深误解，导致更荒唐的结论。
譬如peng最新的发言，——"If you learn modern Chinese history especially after Opium War, you will know why Chinese feel threatened. Chinese neighbors include Russia, Japan, America, India, Afganistan, Pakistan, etc... Korean Peninsula, Taiwan Strait, Kishmir are all bordering China. I think it is obvious why Chinese feel threatened. "
按照我对westerner智商和心态的估计，很可能让他们产生现在的中国与从统一至两次大战的德国之间的联想，呵呵
家园 不赞成 建议不要加入这场论战，只是旁观同意你论战要讲究方法的观点，但是，这并不意味着英文不好的各位（包括偶自己）袖手旁观，拱手将网上的舆论阵地让与藏毒和反中斗士们。英文不象对手那样洋洋洒洒，那就借助西人写好的、比较公正的揭露达赖之流真面目的文章，这样既可以回击藏毒和脑残的免煮人士，又可以让感兴趣的读者去追看原文，何乐不为？
1。先选择一段最具揭发、震撼的短下段落，大概3-500字，符合网上的快速阅读习惯，增加帖子的有效性。
2。在选好的短短下一定要加上原文的标题，如果有空地，也可以加上作者的名字，增加帖子的可信度。
3。一篇好的西人英文文章可以选择其中多个段落留言，以便引起更多的关注。
No mere spiritual leader, he was the head of Tibet's government when he went into exile in 1959. It was a state apparatus run by aristocratic, nepotistic monks that collected taxes, jailed and tortured dissenters and engaged in all the usual political intrigues. (The Dalai Lama's own father was almost certainly murdered in 1946, the consequence of a coup plot.)-Behind Dalai Lama's holy cloak by Michael Backman
The government set up in exile in India and, at least until the 1970s, received $US1.7 million a year from the CIA.The money was to pay for guerilla operations against the Chinese, notwithstanding the Dalai Lama's public stance in support of non-violence, for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989.
-Behind Dalai Lama's holy cloak by Michael Backman
The Dalai Lama himself was on the CIA's payroll from the late 1950s until 1974, reportedly receiving $US15,000 a month ($US180,000 a year).- Behind Dalai Lama's holy cloak by Michael Backman
可转贴的材料不少，譬如这个嘲讽免煮柿油派支持一个非民选的政教合一领袖的段落：
"...Tibetan Buddhism resides in an obvious fact that many Western enthusiasts conveniently forget: the traditional political structure of Tibet is theocracy, with the Dalai Lama at the center. He unites religious and secular power — so when we are talking about the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama, we are taking about choosing a head of state. It is strange to hear self-described democracy advocates who denounce Chinese persecution of followers of the Dalai Lama — a non-democratically elected leader if there ever was one. ”- How China Got Religion By SLAVOJ ZIZEK
又比如，这个揭发达赖御用家教是前党卫军军官的史实:
Instead of this he has cultivated friendly contacts with people such as the ex-SS men Bruno Beger (convicted as helping to murder more than 86 Jews) and Heinrich Harrer, author of Seven Years in Tibet (a chronicle of his experience with the Dalai Lama over seven years prior to his exile to India).- An Interview with Victor and Victoria Trimondi (Germany)
还有这个，揭示达赖所代言的藏传佛教（Tantric Buddhism）中宣讲的“圣战”堪比伊斯兰教极端教旨：
In the Kalachakra Tantra is prophesized the establishment of a Buddhocratic Empire, a clash of civilizations will arise as the military forces of Buddhism wage war against the armies of non-Buddhist religions. Murderous super-weapons possessed by the Buddhist Shambhala Army are described at length and in enthusiastic detail in the Kalachakra Tantra Text (Shri Kalachakra I. 128 – 142) and employed against "enemies of the Dharma (Buddha’s teachings).”- An Interview with Victor and Victoria Trimondi (Germany)
The secret text of the Kalachakra explicitly names the "leaders" of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as the opponents of Buddhism: "Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mani, Muhammad and the Mahdi" describing them as "the family of the demonic snakes" (Shri Kalachakra I. 154). The final, Armageddon-like battle (Shambhala war) ends in the total victory of the Buddhists. The official Kalachakra-Interpreter Alexander Berzin openly compares the principles of the Islamic “Jihad” with that of the Shambhala war. As in the Islamic martyr-ideology Shambhala-Warriors, who will be killed in the last battle have earned passage into the [Buddhist] paradise.- An Interview with Victor and Victoria Trimondi (Germany)
借宗教名义玩弄、奸污妇女是西人大忌：
[/QUOTE]I was a Tantric sex slaveFor years June Campbell was the`consort`of a senior Tibetan Buddhist monk. She was threatened with death if she broke her vow of secrecy. But then enlightenment can be like that.
- The Independent - 10. February 1999 - Paul Vallely
颜子这个强调藏汉都是中国人的帖子也可以借用一下下：http://www.cchere.net/article/1486205
这样别人已经用英文写好的、有依据的文章，偶们只管作拿来主义者好了，（当然要注明来源），正好可以省事省力，有力有理有利有节地回击藏毒及脑残者。
偶自己这两天这莫copy & paste下来，从回帖反映看，效果不算太差，至少让那些公正的英文文章得以传播出去。
本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)- 复 不赞成
家园 This is really a great one! Flower delivered.
- 复 不赞成
家园 不同的阵地，应该采用不同的策略 ctrl c+v的风格比较适合于utube那样冲动性和狂热性泛滥的地方。
而ECO这篇文章下的回帖风格，多数都是辨者们通过自己的语言组织，反映出来的有机的观点和价值体系，
而不是通过大段大段的ctrl c+v他人的材料来进行印证；
这也应该反映的是ECO受众的特色，即有着更强的思辨的倾向，而不是仅仅是通过所谓“引用、印证”的手段就能说服的。因为你引用的还是别人的说法，即无法说明其正确与否，又体现了你自己思维的懒惰或思考力的欠缺。对于冷静的人，要以冷静的态度对之，而贴切、道地的英语犹有助益。
进一步应该看到，网上不分场合地大量ctrl c+v，只会给人一种处处雷同的感觉，会强化westerner“中国的确有言论控制”、“中国网民的言论为什么那么雷同，甚至一字不差”或“中国人的确被统一洗脑”的感觉。
家园 这些 文章来自德国、美国、澳洲等地，其作者有最早介绍达赖到德国的出版家和宗教研究者，有记者，也有专门的学术研究人员，他们的文章从各个角度解刨达赖、藏传佛教，他们的见解不会比ECO的highbrow读者低，谁能肯定这些人一定读过这些资料呢？
当然具体怎莫copy&paste,如何把这些资料应用到你的留言里，要看每个人自己的选择和技巧。偶这里只负责提供资料，省得大家到处找。
必须要说明一下，偶上面的建议不是专门针对ECO的留言而提的，更多的是为在其它譬如CNN/BBC/NYT/PBS/WSJ/WASHINGTONG POST等地方的留言提供一个建议和思路。
家园 感谢厚积薄发兄的贡献 让更多的人更好的了解西方媒体所谓的公正，非常感谢你的辛勤工作！
在《华盛顿邮报》的留言板上同样有着这么一场论战，我很欣赏其中一位叫Mike_Spiker的发言，言辞犀利，论据论点都可圈可点，可惜今天没有再看到他上来，现在那里已经被藏毒的支持分子所霸占了。外链出处
他的发言现在大概到第四页了。
在PBS discussion也曾经有这么一个帖子，一位叫M.A.Jones的人，好像是澳大利亚人，不过在中国工作，对西藏问题非常了解，他一个人在那里与一些藏独支持者对战，文笔也非常好，很值得一看.感觉辨到最后，那些藏独支持者已经无言以对，只能撒泼赖皮了。非常爽快！
本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)家园 偶在WP上看到的经典回复如下 shawnp220 wrote:
shobhan,
Dalai claims the Chinese killed 1 million Tibetans. Tibetan population was 1.2 million in 1950, has grown into 4.6 million in 1990. Let me tell you, with 1 millions killed and oversized monk population, even rats can’t mathematically make it happen.
MikeSpiker wrote:
woody21,
Now, that's a good laugh you just provided to the on-line community. Only if the track record of "your American Revolution" has not been so grim, that perhaps others like the Chinese would listen more carefully without so much doubt. Your "revolution" wiped out nearly the entired native population, but yet you cried wolf about the Chinese in Tibet; Your revolutionh fought a bloody war agaisnt the South to maintain national unity, but yet, you deny such right for the Russians, the Yugoslavs, the Chinese, ... Your "revolution" is the only country that dropped nukes in civilian populations, yet you go around to look for others' WMD, your "revolution" was the only power using large scale chem warfare (Agent Orange), but yet, you hunt for "chemical Ali",... How do you expect folks like the Chinese wonder what the heck you are up to??
Look, China has a longway to go. No doubt. It is 60 years old as a nation. Hey, how was the USA when it was 60 years old? Someone counted almost 100 wars as the USA grew, taking land from the Spanish War, the Mexican War, ..., Marines landed and territory gained in places like Hawaii, Puorto Rico. Play a fair game.
mclovin
Even using your logic, Rome has a greater claim to Europe than China does to Tibet.
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eh, peewee,using your logic, you either pay the folks in the reservation monthly rent for the land you stole, or, pack and move back to Ireland. Come clean dude. Be the ultimate human rights fighter. Start with yourself.
SlaveOwnertheLama wrote:
There were about 10 yares of honey moon period between Dalai Lama and the communist party of China before 1959, during this 10 years nobody in Tibet including Dalai Lama protested "the invasion", why? because they are allowed to keep the salvery system as before, Tibet were part of China for hundres of years, that is why no protest were heard.
But the Chinese communist goverment did a stupid thing, they were real communist at that era, the principle of communism is to make everybody even, more and more of the slaves were liberated, the slave owner class's previlige rights were exploited to such a level that finally Dalai Lama found it unacceptable. that is cause why after the nearly 10 peaceful years, Dalai Lama want to fight against the communist party, if the Chinese goverment didn't liberate the slaves, Tibet would be a peaceful place just like it used to be in Qing, Ming and Yuan Dynasty.
alance wrote:
Harrison Salisbury's 1985 book on The Long March tells of how Mao and his followers - running for their lives from Generalissimo Chiang Kai-Shek's army and air force had to pass by a corner of Tibet. The Tibetans refused to sell them any food and shot at them, which did not endear them to the Chinese on the march in the mid 1930s.
When Chiang Kai-Shek was kicked off the mainland in 1949, the Chinese came back to Tibet to pay them a visit and to thank them for their hospitality.
bibisson wrote:
......................(此处略去N字,反正都是无意义的叫骂,亮点在最后一句)
I do not envy Chinese at all! I do not care about your superior economic performance.
pseudotriton wrote:
Jawnie_Boy wrote:
"All the Chinese who live in the West now but support Beijing's brutality in China are the biggest hypocrits of all."
How is that hypocracy? You're telling me someone living in Denver cannot be a Dallas Cowboys' fan? Give me a break.