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主题:也来说说邓小平的功过 -- 达雅

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                  • 家园 我记得中美之间大使级的会谈一直没有中断过

                    美国一直想拉中国,只不过在71年时候没料到中国会转过弯来了。

                    另外,在中苏关系最紧张的时候,苏的米高扬去美国,说要对中国进行核外科手术,美国反对,说美国不能坐视苏联进攻中国。

                  • 家园 这位能否把话放在一个贴子里方便我投草?按个投真麻烦

                    有的帖子还有几分道理,投还是不投呢。你也是个老ID了,你说的那些在河里也有很多重量级的帖子讨论过无数遍了,没看见你当时在人家的分析数据下面回什么话啊,又来几个真相党的帖子混事,太没意思了吧。

                    就说逃港,阿三这么远滞留香港的人民也不少啊。要是印度在香港上头逃港人员就少么,生活水平差的地方前往生活水平好的地方一点也不奇怪,尤其差距还那么大,至于你说前10年,balabala,无外乎说的是老毛搞政治斗争嘛,我看搞得很好,不搞让我们像苏修一样官僚化知识分子圈养化,然后瓦解掉吗,那时候按照我们的平均资源和官僚凶狠程度别说逃港,再来革命几千万人头落地也不奇怪。

                    71年尼克松来访,他怎么不去捷克不去匈牙利不去罗马尼亚阿尔巴尼亚,那里反苏情绪一点也不比我们差啊,噢对了,他们要不就是政府是苏联控制的由苏联驻军“保护”的,都是芝麻大的小国,都是没有核武器的,价值不够大的这些在中国都是相反的。尼克松当然不至于什么朝拜,但是国家利益的要求而已,并不是什么个人勇气,也没见后续总统勇气很大的再和红色中国断交嘛。

                    至于说什么古巴出人命征战全球,苏联出钱出枪买单,你觉得很聪明。我能说一句,这是小国寡民的洋奴哲学么?你也不要拿朝鲜战争来说事,苏联不出钱不出枪,我们还是要打,那才是大国利益所在。

                    香港神马的就不用说了,没有毛留下这个随时一个指头就能收回的小窗口,还用得着邓去收回?这不算下棋做劫?

                    另外嘛,我想请教,以中国条件的工业化,该怎么做能够保证比毛犯的错误少?几亿受过基本教育的识字群众,几千万产业工人,几百万高等教育的公务员,恩恩,加上建国初年的共产主义理想热情团结一致的高岗胡服邓公等同志,我们现在应该是发达国家嘛,人均收入比不上日本都不好意思和人家打招呼

                    • 家园 按你的说法,我就回应几句

                      57年反右是不是必须的,如果反右是必须的,在这之前是谁让基层搞大鸣大放给政府提意见的?这个人是谁?

                      58年是谁提出来搞大跃进的?甭跟我说什么胡服,设计师那时候干的那些事,本来50年代国内建设本来就搞得一直很顺利,只用了三年时间就完成了第一个五年计划,这速度还慢么?还搞跃进,难道还真的想30年超英赶美?

                      66年是谁提出来发动文化革命的?

                      按您老人家说法,这些都是不可避免的,对中国必须的,是不是?

                      • 家园 我也说几句吧

                        首先,建议找找57年前后的光明日报,上面的言论可比现在的南方系还大胆。对了,还有人在天安门广场集会,要求TG交出政权,轮流执政。当时东欧的事变也起了催化作用,不能不引起执政党的反应。还有,反右当时拿主席的话来说,北京的右派大概400人,全国大概4000人,而最后反右全国下指标反了55万右派,到底是谁的责任呢?超英赶美的口号是针对钢产量的,我们确确实实完成了这个指标。

                        • 家园 建议读一下纳粹或国民党的报纸

                          犹太人或共产党的行径也是天怒人怨,不能不引起执政党的反应啦。

                      • 家园 我看就是必须的,不然就是一小号苏联大号印度阿三的复合体

                        还是那句话不清理中国自满清以来几百年的流毒,不在短时间内以矫枉过正的方式以非正常的代价为牺牲,彻底打破社会等级宗族士民的界限,中国就是“正常国家”的前途,正常国家倒是不用革命了不用付出革命的代价了而是不断付出代价,不断流血导致社会总体的低效率和总体的麻木僵化。

                        试问没有反右没有文革,中国要花多久时间去苏联化,邓公还能改开不?不彻底打倒旧知识分子阶层,抑惑改开都到不了就和旧知识分子合流了?

                        不想付出代价就活的收获,真是做梦。你推崇的这三十年,我们没有付出代价吗?现在连这个代价都已经开始不断被讨论和争议了。

                • 家园 del

                  • del
                    家园 我记得古巴也饿死很多人
                    • 家园 妈妈的呀 古巴人革命前日子其实过的不错啊

                      Economic expansion

                      Although Batista was intent on lining his pockets, Cuba did flourish economically during his regime. Cuba's wages were among the world's highest;[74] according to the International Labor Organization, the average industrial salary in Cuba was the world's 8th highest in 1958, and the average agricultural wage was higher than in developed nations such as Denmark, West Germany, Belgium, or France.[74][75] Although a third of the population still lived in poverty, Cuba was one of the five most developed countries in Latin America.[76] Only 44% of the population was rural.[77]

                      Gross domestic product per capita was already about equal to that of Italy and significantly higher than that of countries such as Japan at the time, although Cuba's GDP was still only a sixth as large as that of the US.[74][78] According to the United Nations at the time, "one feature of the Cuban social structure [was] a large middle class".[78] Labour rights were also favourable - an eight-hour day had been established in 1933, long before other countries, and Cuban workers had a months's paid holiday, nine days' sick leave with pay, and six weeks' holiday before and after childbirth.[79]

                      Cuba also had Latin America's highest per capita consumption rates of meat, vegetables, cereals, automobiles, telephones and radios.[75][79][80]:186 Televisions per capita was the fifth highest in the world, and despite Cuba's small size, it had the world's 8th highest number of radio stations (160). According to the United Nations, Cubans read 58 daily newspapers during the late 1950s, with more newspapers being read only in three much more populous countries: Brazil, Argentina and Mexico.[81] People migrated to Havana at fast pace. Havana was the world's fourth most expensive city at the time,[69] and had more cinemas than New York.[76] The economy could not always keep up with demand, however - under Batista, Cuba had the highest telephone penetration in Latin America, but thousands of citizens were still waiting to be connected to the phone network, causing mass frustration.[77]

                      Moreover, Cuba's health service was remarkably developed. It had one of the highest numbers of doctors per capita - more than in the United Kingdom - and the third-lowest adult mortality rate in the world. According to the World Health Organization, the island had the lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America and the 13th lowest in the world - better than in France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, Spain, and Portugal.[75][82][83]

                      Education spending in Cuba was, relatively, the highest in Latin America.[75] Cuba had the 4th highest literacy rate in the region at almost 80% according to the United Nations, higher than that of Spain.[81][82][83]

                      [edit] Stagnation and dissatisfaction

                      However, the United States was the frame of reference, not Latin America.[69][77] Cubans travelled to America, read American newspapers, listened to American radio, watched American television, and were attracted to American culture.[77] Middle class Cubans dreamed of the American economy and the gap between Cuba and the US increasingly frustrated many in the mid-1950s.[69] The middle class became increasingly dissatisfied with the administration, while labour unions supported Batista until the very end.[69][71]

                      There were large income disparities that were a result of the fact that Cuba's unionized workers enjoyed perhaps the most extensive privileges in Latin America.[84] Cuban labour unions had established limitations on mechanization and even bans on dismissals.[79] The labour unions' privileges were obtained in large measure "at the cost of the unemployed and the peasants".[84]

                      Cuba's labour regulations ultimately caused economic stagnation. Hugh Thomas asserts that "militant unions succeded in maintaining the position of unionized workers and, consequently, made it difficult for capital to improve efficiency."[85] Between 1933 and 1958, Cuba increased economic regulation enormously.[71] The regulation led to declining investment.[71] The World Bank also complained that the Batista administration raised the tax burden without assessing its impact. Unemployment was high; many university graduates could not find jobs.[71] After its earlier meteroic rise, the Cuban gross domestic product grew at only 1% annually on average between 1950 and 1958.[77]

                      我还以为革命后靠苏联养着古巴人日子好过多了呢。大错特错了啊。

                      • 家园 对古巴和美国关系,我曾经专门梳理过

                        基本上美古关系好的时候,古巴糖销往美国,换取工业品和其他物品,日子就会好过;美古关系坏了,美国制裁古巴经济,古巴的糖卖不出去,日子就差些。

                        美国一直想把古巴变成自己的一个州,从19世纪20年代就开始谋划,可惜,美帝自己内部一直有一帮反帝国主义者,总是在关键时候搅局,箝制帝国主义分子吞并古巴的行动。而且,最后连古巴这个附属国也失去了。当年卡斯特罗政变取得政权时候,曾去美国寻找美国的支持,美国看不上老卡,老卡受了美国白眼,一怒之下投靠了社会主义苏联大哥,这下美国算是彻底失去古巴了。

                        • 家园 美国可能是真要不了那么多地方 累赘啊

                          如果美国人想要的话,有的是地方想它的第五十一州的。不说菲律宾,太平洋上各种乱七八糟的各种岛国,中南美洲的很多地方都是实实在在在在想成为美国属地,都是美国人自己不要的。

                          The US recognized the Castro government on 7 January, only six days after Batista fled Cuba. President Eisenhower sent a new ambassador, Philip Bonsal, to replace Earl Smith, who had been close to Batista. The Eisenhower administration, in agreement with the US media and the Congress (Republicans and Democrats alike), did this with the assumption that “Cuba must remain in the US sphere of influence”. If Castro accepted these parameters, he would be allowed to stay in power. Otherwise he would be overthrown.[87]Among the opponents of Batista there were many who wanted to accommodate the US. However, Castro belonged to a faction who, to the astonishment of Eisenhower and many North Americans, was repulsed by US domination and paternalism. Castro did not forgive the US supply of arms to Batista during the revolution. On 5 June 1958, he wrote: “The Americans are going to pay dearly for what they are doing. When the war is over, I’ll start a much longer and bigger war of my own: the war I’m going to fight against them. That will be my true destiny.”[88] (The US had stopped supplies to Batista in March 1958, but left its Military Advisory Group in Cuba[89]). Thus, Castro had no intention to bow to the US. “Even though he did not have a clear blueprint of the Cuba he wanted to create, Castro dreamed of a sweeping revolution that would uproot his country’s oppressive socioeconomic structure and of a Cuba that would be free of the United States”.[90]

                          这个情形好像与中国很相似。

                          还有我原先讲的卡斯特罗没搞文革也是不对的。老卡清洗起来也是很狠的。一个现在一千多万人口的小国家光跑出来的就有120万人,还不算没跑成功喂鲨鱼的。

                          Fidel Castro quickly purged political opponents from the administration. Loyalty to Castro became the primary criterion for all appointments.[86] Groups such as labour unions were made illegal.[80][page needed]

                          By the end of 1960, all opposition newspaper had been closed down and all radio and television stations were in state control.[80]:189 Teachers and professors were purged.[80]:189 The Communist Party strengthened its one-party rule, with Castro as the supreme leader.[80]:189 Moderates were arrested.[80]:189 Fidel's brother Raul Castro became the commander of the army.[80]:189 In September 1960, the neighborhood watch networks known as committees for the defense of the revolution (CDR) were created.[80]:189

                          你讲的饥荒也是存在的,不过可能没有大规模饿死人。

                          Cubans had to resort to eating anything they could find. In the Havana zoo, the peacocks, the buffalo and even the rhea were reported to have disappeared.[124] Cuban domestic cats disappeared from streets to dinner tables.

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