主题:【原创】即使没有文革,中国经济也不会提前进入第二世界 -- 葡萄
印度的初等教育
因为《南亚研究》是季刊,所以也是最新一期。
另外补充一组数字:
1949年中印经济数字比较
中国 印度 (单位:万吨)
原煤 3200 3200
原油 12 25
发电 43亿千瓦时 46亿千瓦时
钢 15.7 137
生铁 25 164
水泥 66 186
平板玻璃 83.7 ——————————
纯碱 8.8 1.8
纱 32.7 61.5
糖 20 118
油料 297.2 498
粮食 11318 5501
汽车 0 1.6
铁路 2.1万公里 5.3万公里
产业工人 120万 600万
人均GDP 70美圆 150美圆
在校小学生 5110 万人 1915 万人
在校初中生 223 万人 312 万人
在校高中生 26 万人 122 万人
在校大学生 19.1 万人 36 人万
上面的数字除了产业工人数字,其他均来自:
《龙与象:中国,印度崛起的全球冲击》
是上海情报研究所出版的论文。
这里有个我自己写的链接提到识字率话题
http://www.here4news.com/article/3486499
这里另外补充一个关于1947年印度钢铁生产的数字,印度钢年产97.7万吨生铁产量157万吨。数字来自《印度之路-印度工业化之路》学林出版社。
1952年,是印度工业化的第二年。也是从印度政府颁布印度第一部许可证法的《工业发展与管理法》的第一年。从该年起,印度政府对印度私营公司开始严格的管理。在印度开始第一个五年计划的最后一年1955-1956印度财政年度,印度获得的美国贷款相当于印度该年度货币发行总量的50%,为该年印度获得全部援助的71%。也就是说,印度在1955-1956财政年度获得的援助总数相当于印度该财政年度全年货币发行总量的70%。也在该年2月,苏联对印度启动了比莱钢铁厂援助当时生产设计为年产百万吨。一年以后,东欧各国联合援助,和西欧各国联合援助各自对印度启动了年产百万吨钢铁的援助计划。
印度外交官值得为自己自豪。
这难道是上层,或者说是某些能够影响决策的精英们的意图,而且这种思路还很流行?阿三在国人的映像中向来是落后脏乱的,虽然他们有先进的一面,不过在我们眼里往往都是嗤之以鼻的,前段时间很火的《中国震撼》中里面也有大段篇幅来驳斥印度路径不符中国实际了,我觉得持这种观点的人应该是大数吧。
观点如下:
印度通胀那么高,印度股票和房地产拉动的经济增长依旧高速。所以对比中国的宏调就是乱搞。只要股票和房地产好,印度模式没有什么不好。
哈哈,希望看到更多您关于其他话题的讨论,比如土地管理法要改了,土地财政的发展我一直盯着,可惜没看到啥具体动静。
的规模和效果如何?和156项目比如何?弄清楚这些,想弄明白建国那些选择是否真的有意义,是否中国也可以左右逢源像印度一样得到援助。
与座一位德高望重的长者,对说文革意义的小伙子说,你多大。答:80后。然后长者很郑重其事的说了当年自己的一件亲身经历来说明当时文革期间物资匮乏的程度的说明。他对小伙子说,不要轻言文革如何如何。
然后,我对长者说了这样的话,大意有三段。我对长者说,
1.文革期间,我这里说的是1966年到1969年的文革设定。这期间恰逢越战最激烈的时候。这段时间,美国军队驻越人数从16万激增到近57万。当时,中国启动三线以及文革。在国防工业开支,在三线开支以及各种插遍全球红旗的输出革命援助。总开支一度超过中国当时GDP的50%。长者认同。
2.我引用一本书的例子,在二战期间美国罢工频繁。其中以福特汽车为例,其主要生产工厂平均每天罢工记录为平均每天1.6次。(数字来自《生产力——工业自动化史》)然后我把话题一转,我这样对长者说。如果,我举二战的例子还不能说明我的观点的话。我以现在的例子,来说话。我说现在有多少人上班不聊天。(隐含话题包括上班偷菜,上班玩游戏等类推)同时我再回到二战美国工厂的例子,我说当美国技术工人有完成指标后就罢工的传统。而二战,美国生产快速增长是我们都看到的。我再举例说,我完成季度指标实际只需要4-5个工作日,我想多挣钱就多干,不然完成指标后就去忙自己的事情了。然后我再近一步说,在文革期间,闹革命乃至武斗造成的生产破坏损失是无可置疑的。但是我们对比美国的例子,在这里我想说的是文革期间(这里说的文革是十年的传统概念)经济总量的增长也是一个事实。那么,在此期间技术的增加对生产的促进作用,肯定相当大程度抵消了因为人的因素造成的必要生产时间的不足。长者认同。
3.我在前面的表述形成基本共识后,我继续对长者表达我的观点。我说,那么我们回到文革的基本认识。我们觉得,小X(就是引起文革话题的80后)和您的观点都没有问题。具体到切入视角。我停了停,我说不管最终我们对文革的有什么结论结论。我想,在任何一个国家和任何一个时代,只要这个国家在国防军事及其相关开支占GDP比例超过50%,我想对比其他时代,这个时代的普通人人均生活水平明显下降都是不可避免的。那么就,文革本身抓生产闹革命吧而言,乃至各种武斗以及混乱的那些事造成出现造成的生产下降(66年到69年,中国各项生产指标急剧下滑)的因素的确存在。但是,那是不是在整个文革期间普通人对比之前生活有明显生活质量下滑感觉,是什么承担主要责任,这个是我们要弄明白的。简单点说是军费投入比例过重造成的文革(十年标准)生活水平明显匮乏的主因,还是文革中各种破坏生产的运动是主因。这个不弄明白,我们会继续重复历史的错误。对于前面那句话,长者认同。
而这个几天,我会想前些天的那次聚会。我想表述的是,如同我在那天对长者和其他河友说的那样。我那天说的每个事例,乃至每段历史故事。我实际都直接对应着我们不远后的未来。我曾经对身边的人问过这样的问题,如果当一定局面陷入到对外帝国主义战争和国内革命选择之外如果有第三种选择你会选择哪种的时候。只有一个人说他毫不犹豫选择帝国主义战争(哪怕是一战那种,这个我是问明白的),其他人选择文革。其实,那天在文革话题之中我对长者和河友这样说。其实,不管毛泽东是否有主观上的认识。事实上,我们今天在Facebook看到的社区自组织扩张形式其实就是文革主席想要改造社会所期许的社会模型的网络虚拟版本。我对这个称作,社会基层组织通过自组织的形式形成新型社会发展模式。而回到现在几乎不再提及毛泽东的社会发展观点:通过先进生产力的关系来加速实现生产力发展。我们必须认识到,文革几乎是毛主观世界和现实世界结合实践的必然。
如果是从通过先进生产力的关系来加速实现生产力发展的角度,如果通过Facebook仅仅用了7年就实现了苹果用了10年,微软用了20年以及IBM用了四十年成就的美国最高单一股票股价世界第一的过程。我想,我开始第一次理解了为什么那个欧洲学者会对我的朋友说,文革是人类最后一次挣扎。
而从思想与哲学世界的漫游我们回到现实。在帝国化未来面前,我们需要如何面对现实。在这个基础上我们审视这个国家在过去六十年曾经发生的事,文革在80后甚至90后中引起再争议的话题。恐怕,就远不是长者说的没有亲身经历的不了解与凭空假设。而如果我们没有对文革和当今社会问题与矛盾的相关逻辑与联系,形成一种可以被普通人理解和接受并且可以通过各种数字量化的定性定量分析。我以为,我们重复开国60年来不断发生的那种错误依旧是不可避免的。而我在当时我曾经有这样的牢骚话。我这十多年的准备,无论后面中国发生什么问题,哪怕是文革化的哪怕是帝制复活的或者说是出现苏东局面的。我有有把握说,我保持自己现有的生活水准不下降。(当时酒席间一个好朋友说我自己想这些太多了,很多事情你管不到你操心也多余)我自己实际担心的是,在新一轮新技术革命和生产组织关系重组过程中,我们会被开除球籍。其实,你问身边的很多人,他们实际并不关心自己是不是一个中国人,他们关心的多数问题还是在于自己每天生活境遇的改善。从这个角度说,如果多数中国人都宁可在不可回避的改变来到前选择战争或者其他,我想明白的是我只能去接受这个结果,然后大家一起承担结果。而不是像很多自负的人认定的那样,出国就可以没事了。这个地球没有隐士了。
而对于主张印度化的人我只想这样表述,我们果真把社会问题与矛盾积累到那一天,我们纵使想印度化也不可得。此为旁话,聚会后脑中划过的一瞬间。
本帖一共被 2 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
中间的路径我无法关心。仅此而已。
我想知道你是怎么想的
http://www.here4news.com/article/3504240
你的问题很好,算是第一个切近我们小圈子里那些讨论的实际关心问题了。而这个问题我不妨你扩张下,在第一次鸦片战争后,当魏源那一代知识份子开始呼喊睁开眼睛看世界的时候,那是我眼睛中的第一次文革。而后实际从五四运动爆发开始一直到文革结束,乃至到今天。我们依旧没有摆脱一个从政治,经济,文化,制度与法律乃至文明全面落后于西方的态势,这个就是我说的我们有被开除球籍的危险其实在西西河这里很多人其实对此不以为然。而连接中,那个长者在文革话题前后,都重复过两个观点。
1.历史上的成功的帝国,能够在世界上崛起都不可以避免对人类文明做出积极的贡献,不然任何崛起都是昙花一现。中国即使经济总量在世界第一了,但是不能对人类社会的文明进步做出自己独立的贡献,我们的崛起也只能是昙花一现。
2.现在的中国如果继续德国和日本在一战二战那种依托民族主义的道路,实际就是和全世界作对。这个必亡之路。绝对不可能成功。
那么我们从我连接的话题里,我们不妨思考下。在第一次鸦片战争以来,我们到1949年建立新中国,我们当时的问题是什么。解决这些问题先后秩序是什么。这样你问我的话你自己就会有个计较。而后,用同样的问题,我们回到1959年,1965年,1979年,1989年,1993年,2003年,2008年,乃至今年与明年。我相信,这样一路问下来的自问自答,从历史中你会得到很多。我多少次问自己,当时没有更好的选择么。
在这里实际考校的是你的世界观与价值观。你可以看到,西西河论坛今天的众生相,挂着左右旗帜下的芸芸以及以酱油派为自诩的种种人群。我想,那不是我们今天社会的缩影与写照。从某种程度也说明了,自五四以来,自第一次鸦片战争以来,我们这个国家和民族寻找一条民族自信自强与自立之路到底实际走了多远的真实写照。
然后,按照前面提的年份。你自己重新再一次自问自答。这个过程不断的重复过程中,你会很痛苦,但是你迟早有你自己的不会被人左右的观形成。这样的观点形成后,你不会被他人的观点轻易忽悠,你也不会被自己利益取舍的冲动而动摇,你更不会在后面的所谓历史时刻中困惑。
呵呵,都不过是破山中贼易,破心中贼难尔。
你自己理一遍开国六十年后,我想我们会有更多话题可以继续的。:)
七十二家
几家欢喜几家愁
我的不少印度朋友,是非常遗憾印度只有甘地这个所谓圣人, 却没有出毛泽东
Aside from the bland icon of the new China, there is a much more dangerous Mao, whose ideas retain their vitality
In 2008 in Beijing I met the Chinese novelist Yu Hua shortly after he had returned from Nepal, where revolutionaries inspired by Mao Zedong had overthrown a monarchy. A young Red Guard during the Cultural Revolution, Yu Hua, like many Chinese of his generation, has extremely complicated views on Mao. Still, he was astonished, he told me, to see Nepalese Maoists singing songs from his Maoist youth – sentiments he never expected to hear again in his lifetime.
otto 20/07 Illustration by Otto
In fact, the success of Nepalese Maoists is only one sign of the "return" of Mao. In central India armed groups proudly calling themselves Maoists control a broad swath of territory, fiercely resisting the Indian government's attempts to make the region's resource-rich forests safe for the mining operations that, according to a recent report in Foreign Policy magazine, "major global companies like Toyota and Coca-Cola" now rely on.
And – as though not to be outdone by Mao's foreign admirers – some Chinese have begun to carefully deploy Mao's still deeply ambiguous memory in China. Texting Mao's sayings to mobile phones, broadcasting "Red" songs from state-owned radio and television, and sending college students to the countryside, Bo Xilai, the ambitious communist party chief of the southwestern municipality of Chongqing, is leading an unexpected Mao revival in China.
It was the "return" of Marx, rather than of Mao, that was much heralded in academic and journalistic circles after the financial crisis of 2008. And it is true that Marxist theorists, rather than Marx himself, clearly anticipated the problems of excessive capital accumulation, and saw how eager and opportunistic investors cause wildly uneven development across regions and nations, enriching a few and impoverishing many others. But Mao's "Sinified" and practical Marxism, which includes a blueprint for armed rebellion, appears to speak more directly to many people in poor countries.
It is tempting to denounce Mao as a monster, and to dismiss the Maoists of today as no less criminally deluded than Peru's Shining Path guerillas, or the Khmer Rouge. Certainly, the scale of the violence Mao inflicted on China dwarfs all other crimes and disasters committed during the course of nation-building in the last two centuries. But political and economic modernisers elsewhere also exacted a terrible human cost from their allegedly backward peoples. In the last century alone, millions died due to political conflict or hunger and were brutally dispossessed and culturally deracinated in a huge area of Asian territory, from Turkey and Iran to Indonesia and Taiwan.
Every nation state whitewashes the abominations of its founders. The influence, however, of the earliest postcolonial nation-builders is severely limited today. Hardly anyone looks up Sukarno's Pancasila for political guidance, or derive inspiration, as Nasser and Jinnah once did, from Ataturk's republican nationalism. So denunciations of Mao don't go very far in explaining his enduring appeal inside and outside China.
That said, there seems little mystery to the invocation of Mao by a new generation of Chinese leaders, who recently also tapped into Confucius as a source of ideological legitimacy. The recourse to Mao is an example of the expedient populism that insecure ruling classes resort to. As an icon of the new China, Mao seems as bland as the basketball player Yao Ming and the French Open tennis champion Li Na. But for many people outside China there is another, much more dangerous, Mao – and he isn't the rash instigator of the Great Leap Forward or the cynical perpetrator of the Cultural Revolution, either. For them, as Yu Hua writes in a forthcoming book, "what Mao did in China is not so important – what matters is that his ideas retain their vitality and, like seeds planted in receptive soil, 'strike root, flower, and bear fruit'."
Mao set out these portable ideas well before his disastrous reign as quasi-emperor of China. Indeed, his diagnosis of, and proposed cure for, China's pre-revolutionary maladies in such tracts as "Report on an Investigation of the Peasant Movement in Hunan" (1927), "On Guerrilla Warfare" (1937) and "On Protracted War" (1938) were what gave him his decisive advantage over his many Chinese rivals.
Early in his career he identified a nexus between feudal elites in the hinterland and capitalists in the semi-colonial coastal cities as the enemy, and then successfully mobilised a "people's" army to break it. Mao's theory and praxis was always likely to have greater appeal than classical, urban-oriented Marxism in many agrarian countries, where tiny elites held down, often with foreign assistance, a population consisting largely of peasants.
Nearly half a century ago, nationalist groups in Vietnam and Cuba successfully realised Mao's strategy of encircling the cities from the countryside. Now it is economic globalisers, encircling the countryside from the cities, who provide a freshly receptive soil for Mao's theory and praxis. Far from being rendered irrelevant, they have become attractive again to many people who feel actively victimised rather than simply "left behind" by an expansionist capitalism.
A case in point is the Maoist insurgency in the forests of central India, which feeds on the Indian government's ruthless drive to open up the region's great mineral reserves to private and multinational corporations. Indian Maoists mouthing Mao Zedong's rhetoric about local "compradors" and foreign imperialists may appear to be pathetic dead-enders to those who imagine everyone will at some point settle down to loving liberal democracy and the iPad. But the Maoists, though often corrupt and brutal, have found a large constituency among millions of indigenous peoples (Adivasis), for whom even the fragile security of a subsistence economy has been destroyed by the nexus between global corporations and their Indian enforcers.
The Indian writer Shashank Kela points to a crucial fact about Indian Maoism and its Adivasi rank and file: "It is the circumstances of their lives rather than its ideology that push its followers into a desperate, last-ditch battle with the state in preference to dispossession." As Kela writes, "mining and heavy industry displaced Adivasi communities, destroyed their livelihoods, failed to give them jobs and cut them loose to join the swelling workforce of migrant labourers, a sea of impoverished, overworked human beings, reduced to accepting the worst-paid jobs in city and countryside".
It is far from clear how the Maoist insurgency, and its attempted suppression by Indian paramilitaries, who have claimed more than 10,000 lives in the past decade, will end. After their overthrow of the monarchial state, Nepal's Maoists went on to participate in elections. Indian Maoists are unlikely to give up armed resistance any time soon.
And the Indian state may find it impossible to suppress them militarily. That the benefits of economic globalisation will abruptly start flowing to its biggest victims is even less conceivable in the forests of central India than in the post-industrial cities of midwestern America. "There is not the slightest chance," Kela writes of the Maoist Adivasis, one of the peoples rendered superfluous by industrial capitalism, "that they will ever become a factory proletariat". A long and bloody stalemate beckons; and, while Maoism may be reduced to near-meaninglessness as state doctrine in China, it seems certain that many corners of the world are likely to remain Maoist for a very long time.
就第二点来说,我倒是觉得还好办。毕竟我们的文化传统使然,我们几千年来走的大体上是以实力为依托的以德服人的基本路线。真要走法西斯路线的话,我想大多数人是不会同意和支持的,无它,不符合传统习惯,基本价值观耳。
第一点在当下而言确实是个十分棘手的问题。三十年的实用主义路线,已经让“只顾眼前,不管长远”的思维定式深入到了很多人的骨髓里,而且这样的人遍布社会各个阶层,上到庙堂高阁,下到黎民百姓无处不是弥漫着这样的思维定式。而以这样的思维定式,要想让中华民族为人类文明发展做出贡献,实在是很难。不知葡萄大哥如何看待这个问题。