主题：【原创】一场没有硝烟的战争：在《经济学人》留言板上发生的一场论战 -- 厚积薄发

From what I know & read the Tibetans are fed up seeing the Chines immigrants getting the well paid jobs. An example of the unjustness is when the rail way was built the Tibetans only got the low paying jobs & the new imigrant Chianese the well paid jobs. One way to subjacate people is to disalow the practice of religion. Buddism is a way of life for Tibetans,meaning religion binds their culture together. Ironically many in China think highly of the Dalai Lama.

我的见闻是西藏人对中国移民拿走高收入的工作已经受够了。不公正的一个列子是在铁路工程中西藏人只有低收入工作而新移民好工作。（subjacate people is to disalow是什么意思啊？这家伙英文够可以的。）宗教信仰是西藏的生活方式，这意味着宗教和他们的文化已经绑在一起了。具有讽刺意味的是，许多中国人对达赖评价很高。

"If Tibetans truly cleave to the Han path let them say so in an independent referendum."

dartmouthgirlie 出现了：

Would this really be in the interest of the Tibetan people? The literacy rate is only around 50% (and close to 0% prior to Chinese invasion/liberation). Can they realistically make informed decisions that are in their OWN interests rather than the interests of the government-in-exile (former aristocracy)?

I just found this article from an Australian publication that provides some insight into the Dalai and his government:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/behind-dalai-lamas-holy-cloak/2007/05/22/1179601410290.html

Seems like a bold move from a journalist. Perhaps "free press" means more in Australia than in the US/UK

“如果西藏人确实忠于汉族式道路，那就让他们通过一次独立的全民投票表达出来”

这真是对西藏人民有利的吗？（他们）识字率只有50%（中国入侵/解放前接近0）。他们真的能根据[B]自己的[/B]利益而不是沦亡政府（前贵族统治）的利益做决定吗？我刚从一家澳大利亚出版物中发现这篇论文，它提供一些对达赖和他的政府有洞察力的认识。

看起来象是一个新闻工作者的大胆举动。也许新闻自由在澳大利亚比在英美意味着更多东西

复【原创】一场没有硝烟的战争：在《经济学人》留言板上发生的一场论战

家园

感谢厚积薄发兄的贡献

让更多的人更好的了解西方媒体所谓的公正，非常感谢你的辛勤工作！

在《华盛顿邮报》的留言板上同样有着这么一场论战，我很欣赏其中一位叫Mike_Spiker的发言，言辞犀利，论据论点都可圈可点，可惜今天没有再看到他上来，现在那里已经被藏毒的支持分子所霸占了。外链出处

他的发言现在大概到第四页了。

在PBS discussion也曾经有这么一个帖子，一位叫M.A.Jones的人，好像是澳大利亚人，不过在中国工作，对西藏问题非常了解，他一个人在那里与一些藏独支持者对战，文笔也非常好，很值得一看.感觉辨到最后，那些藏独支持者已经无言以对，只能撒泼赖皮了。非常爽快！

外链出处

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馒头要一口一口地吃。

复厚兄，建议您先把英文版贴出来

家园

原文在这里

已删除。

复有链接没有,想去看看.

家园

违规原文转贴，以便无法访问的河友参阅。麻烦版主一会儿删掉。多谢！

已删除。

复【原创】一场没有硝烟的战争：在《经济学人》留言板上发生的一场论战

家园

可惜人的思维很难转变

peng和小妞能在多大程度上扫除或减弱他们的无知、误解和敌意，很可存疑……

很多辩论，如果不是从善意的角度去理解，很容易被加深误解，导致更荒唐的结论。

譬如peng最新的发言，——"If you learn modern Chinese history especially after Opium War, you will know why Chinese feel threatened. Chinese neighbors include Russia, Japan, America, India, Afganistan, Pakistan, etc... Korean Peninsula, Taiwan Strait, Kishmir are all bordering China. I think it is obvious why Chinese feel threatened. "

按照我对westerner智商和心态的估计，很可能让他们产生现在的中国与从统一至两次大战的德国之间的联想，呵呵

复其实原文倒是不要紧，会有翻译的

家园

中文ECO我也参与过几次的，不过感觉很慢啊，很多文章都没翻的

尤其是这种敏感性文章，更是难上加难了……

复回复很有意思

家园

应该是subjugate和disallow

One way to subjacate people is to disalow the practice of religion.

压制人民的（其中）一个方式是夺去实践宗教（的自由）。

复应该是subjugate和disallow

家园

后面那个disallow好猜，前面那个差别大。还是您高，花你一个

复感谢厚积薄发兄的贡献

家园

Mike_Spiker是世界军事的常客.

复我觉得您提醒的好。

家园

俺就是干媒体滴：Circulation,指的就是发行量～：）

复感谢厚积薄发兄的贡献

家园

天哪！M.A.Jones is a good scholar!!

他的每个回复都那么认真和有说服力，文字那么长，完全像写文章一样。这种真正的探讨精神是我们应该学习的！

应该翻译的是这样的东东啊！

I agree with your general assessment of the Dalai Lama - he maintains a strong religious following among a significant percentage of Tibetans in Tibet, but as a secessionist he is becoming increasingly irrelevant - so much so in fact, that the central government in Beijing can now afford to pretty much ignore him. His relevance as a political figure will only diminish further as Tibet coninues to modernise.

但是，他这个观点并没有被事实所迅速验证。这是很遗憾的。

复可惜人的思维很难转变

家园

不赞成

建议不要加入这场论战，只是旁观

同意你论战要讲究方法的观点，但是，这并不意味着英文不好的各位（包括偶自己）袖手旁观，拱手将网上的舆论阵地让与藏毒和反中斗士们。英文不象对手那样洋洋洒洒，那就借助西人写好的、比较公正的揭露达赖之流真面目的文章，这样既可以回击藏毒和脑残的免煮人士，又可以让感兴趣的读者去追看原文，何乐不为？

1。先选择一段最具揭发、震撼的短下段落，大概3-500字，符合网上的快速阅读习惯，增加帖子的有效性。

2。在选好的短短下一定要加上原文的标题，如果有空地，也可以加上作者的名字，增加帖子的可信度。

3。一篇好的西人英文文章可以选择其中多个段落留言，以便引起更多的关注。

No mere spiritual leader, he was the head of Tibet's government when he went into exile in 1959. It was a state apparatus run by aristocratic, nepotistic monks that collected taxes, jailed and tortured dissenters and engaged in all the usual political intrigues. (The Dalai Lama's own father was almost certainly murdered in 1946, the consequence of a coup plot.)

-Behind Dalai Lama's holy cloak by Michael Backman

The government set up in exile in India and, at least until the 1970s, received $US1.7 million a year from the CIA.

The money was to pay for guerilla operations against the Chinese, notwithstanding the Dalai Lama's public stance in support of non-violence, for which he was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize in 1989.

-Behind Dalai Lama's holy cloak by Michael Backman

The Dalai Lama himself was on the CIA's payroll from the late 1950s until 1974, reportedly receiving $US15,000 a month ($US180,000 a year).

- Behind Dalai Lama's holy cloak by Michael Backman

可转贴的材料不少，譬如这个嘲讽免煮柿油派支持一个非民选的政教合一领袖的段落：

"...Tibetan Buddhism resides in an obvious fact that many Western enthusiasts conveniently forget: the traditional political structure of Tibet is theocracy, with the Dalai Lama at the center. He unites religious and secular power — so when we are talking about the reincarnation of the Dalai Lama, we are taking about choosing a head of state. It is strange to hear self-described democracy advocates who denounce Chinese persecution of followers of the Dalai Lama — a non-democratically elected leader if there ever was one. ”

- How China Got Religion By SLAVOJ ZIZEK

又比如，这个揭发达赖御用家教是前党卫军军官的史实:

Instead of this he has cultivated friendly contacts with people such as the ex-SS men Bruno Beger (convicted as helping to murder more than 86 Jews) and Heinrich Harrer, author of Seven Years in Tibet (a chronicle of his experience with the Dalai Lama over seven years prior to his exile to India).

- An Interview with Victor and Victoria Trimondi (Germany)

还有这个，揭示达赖所代言的藏传佛教（Tantric Buddhism）中宣讲的“圣战”堪比伊斯兰教极端教旨：

In the Kalachakra Tantra is prophesized the establishment of a Buddhocratic Empire, a clash of civilizations will arise as the military forces of Buddhism wage war against the armies of non-Buddhist religions. Murderous super-weapons possessed by the Buddhist Shambhala Army are described at length and in enthusiastic detail in the Kalachakra Tantra Text (Shri Kalachakra I. 128 – 142) and employed against "enemies of the Dharma (Buddha’s teachings).”

- An Interview with Victor and Victoria Trimondi (Germany)

The secret text of the Kalachakra explicitly names the "leaders" of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as the opponents of Buddhism: "Adam, Enoch, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mani, Muhammad and the Mahdi" describing them as "the family of the demonic snakes" (Shri Kalachakra I. 154). The final, Armageddon-like battle (Shambhala war) ends in the total victory of the Buddhists. The official Kalachakra-Interpreter Alexander Berzin openly compares the principles of the Islamic “Jihad” with that of the Shambhala war. As in the Islamic martyr-ideology Shambhala-Warriors, who will be killed in the last battle have earned passage into the [Buddhist] paradise.

- An Interview with Victor and Victoria Trimondi (Germany)

借宗教名义玩弄、奸污妇女是西人大忌：

[/QUOTE]I was a Tantric sex slave

For years June Campbell was the`consort`of a senior Tibetan Buddhist monk. She was threatened with death if she broke her vow of secrecy. But then enlightenment can be like that.

- The Independent - 10. February 1999 - Paul Vallely

颜子这个强调藏汉都是中国人的帖子也可以借用一下下：http://www.cchere.net/article/1486205

这样别人已经用英文写好的、有依据的文章，偶们只管作拿来主义者好了，（当然要注明来源），正好可以省事省力，有力有理有利有节地回击藏毒及脑残者。

偶自己这两天这莫copy & paste下来，从回帖反映看，效果不算太差，至少让那些公正的英文文章得以传播出去。

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教你一步步反藏独 - 新添西藏人口、教育等内容4/07

复不赞成

家园

不同的阵地，应该采用不同的策略

ctrl c+v的风格比较适合于utube那样冲动性和狂热性泛滥的地方。

而ECO这篇文章下的回帖风格，多数都是辨者们通过自己的语言组织，反映出来的有机的观点和价值体系，

而不是通过大段大段的ctrl c+v他人的材料来进行印证；

这也应该反映的是ECO受众的特色，即有着更强的思辨的倾向，而不是仅仅是通过所谓“引用、印证”的手段就能说服的。因为你引用的还是别人的说法，即无法说明其正确与否，又体现了你自己思维的懒惰或思考力的欠缺。对于冷静的人，要以冷静的态度对之，而贴切、道地的英语犹有助益。

进一步应该看到，网上不分场合地大量ctrl c+v，只会给人一种处处雷同的感觉，会强化westerner“中国的确有言论控制”、“中国网民的言论为什么那么雷同，甚至一字不差”或“中国人的确被统一洗脑”的感觉。

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