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主题:【整理原创】朝鲜战争中的细菌战(系列终结篇) -- 思炎

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家园 看此贴,是经历从杯具到洗具的过程:)

别的,就没什么可说了。

几个月不来,河水又翻了几层底了

郢客不现,又见思炎,西河女党真的是薪火相传,连绵不绝……

家园 理论上说步枪打飞机是可能的

但是有很高的条件,首先飞机要飞得很低,其次飞机要飞得很慢,再者步枪必须射程足够长。

步枪打下飞机不奇怪,金日成能打下飞机的确很奇怪!

家园 szxy兄已经找到超大的辟谣贴了

“金日成打飞机”这篇文章确实是国人写的。它的原始出处是来自于2003年的小熊武器军事论坛,作者是SC的网友 主体思想万岁。最初是以“小说序曲”的名义发表的,当然这部“小说”不可能有名字。

超大辟谣贴

家园 你这个回帖可太高层次了。差点以为是风雨来的留言

对不起, 你那个谁被杀到底是怎么一回事就凭一部片子就定论 [ yfb ] 于:2010-03-24 06:29:31 复:2796924

了?连最后那21个到中国的战俘后来回美国都没打成是叛国罪,你说什么就是什么?

哈哈,这样的逻辑。。。佩服。

frank Olson 被杀的事,当然定论了,你在这个问题上没搞清楚,不承认,那么你的逻辑理解力需要提高。这是很关键的一点,其他的你就象[虎王2006]下面的评论,和你讨论,很浪费我的时间。

就给你一些来源,自己好好读读。。。。

A California history professor, Kathryn Olmstead, has discovered documents at the Gerald Ford library which were written by Cheney and Rumsfeld.

They show how far the White House went to conceal information about Olson's death — and his role in preparing anthrax and other biological weapons. .

Cheney and Rumsfeld were given the task of covering up the details of Frank Olson's death. At the time, Rumsfeld was White House Chief of Staff to President Gerald Ford. Dick Cheney was a senior White House assistant.

The documents uncovered by Professor Olmstead include one that states "Dr Olson's job was so sensitive that it is highly unlikely that we would submit relevant evidence".

In another memo, Cheney acknowledges that "the Olson lawyers will seek to explore all the circumstances of Dr Olson's employment, as well as those concerning his death. In any trial, it may become apparent that we are concealing evidence for national security reasons and any settlement or judgement reached thereafter could be perceived as money paid to cover up the activities of the CIA".

Frank Olson's family received US$750,000 to settle their claims against the US government.

外链出处

Unfortunately, the U.S. government and military have experimented on U.S. soldiers and civilians without their informed consent or knowledge on a number of occasions since 1945 and when caught or exposed, have gone into elaborate cover-up operations.

The New York Times (11/19/92) wrote in an article entitled: "Canada to Pay the Victims of Mind-Altering Treatment": Canada has agreed to compensate victims of psychiatric experiments carried out mainly in the 1950s and financed in part by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The experiments began after some prisoners returned from the Korean War brainwashed, and Western intelligence agencies began studies and experiments on the nature and possibility of mind control.

John Marks, a former State Dept. official whose 1979 book, The Search for the Manchurian Candidate", called attention to the experiments, said that a CIA front called the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, funneled more than $60,000 to Dr. Cameron for the studies. Ottawa gave him more than $200,000.

The 11/7/88 New York Times carried an article entitled, "The CIA and the Evil Doctor", which wrote: The Justice Department agreed last month to pay $750,000 to settle a lawsuit brought by nine victims of the Central Intelligence Agency's brainwashing experiments in the 1950s. The research was conducted by the late Dr. D. Ewen Cameron, one of the most famous psychiatrists of his time.

What caught the Central Intelligence Agency's eye was his comparison of 'psychic driving' to techniques of coerced interrogation and brainwashing. Using one its front organizations, the agency solicited a grant application from Dr. Cameron and funded his work. With the CIA funds, Dr. Cameron continued his experiments. Using patients who came to him for psychiatric treatment, but without disclosing that he was experimenting, he tried to break through patients' resistance to the taped messages.

To this end, he induced severe regression in the patients, using combinations of extremely intensive electric shock, barbiturate-induced sleep for up to 60 days at a stretch, sensory deprivation and hallucinogenic drugs. These techniques left patients dazed, confused, incontinent and often in a state of utter panic. The CIA funding was secret.

The relief bill for Thornwell would provide $1.7 million, more than twice as much as the $750,000 award made in 1976 to the family of Frank R. Olson. Olson, a civilian biochemist who worked for the Army at Fort Detrick, MD, jumped to his death in 1953 after CIA agents laced his drink with LSD.

Members of Olson's family, who live in Frederick, MD, did not learn until 1975 that he had been drugged. They later received a $750,000 settlement from the government.

Olson plunged from a room at the Hotel Statler on Nov. 28, 1953, nine days after the CIA gave him LSD without his knowledge. The experiment was part of a CIA program known as MK-ULTRA to study the effects of LSA and other drugs for intelligence and military purposes.

After learning he was given the mind-bending drug, Olson sank into a paranoid depression. He told his Army superiors he wanted to quit his job as one of the nation's top germ-warfare scientists, and his family now says they believe he was slain because he had become a security risk.

来源:外链出处

这篇文章里有好多美国政府掩盖做实验的秘密的例子,好可怕,好黑哦。

还有,我文章里早就写了:

When the prisoners of war who had made these confessions returned from Korea in the summer of 1953, they were interrogated by the Artichoke team, which had announced its eagerness to do so weeks in advance. In a memorandum to the top leadership of the CIA, the team said it wanted to use those “who have been exposed to and accepted in varying degrees Communist indoctrination ... as unique research material in the Artichoke work.”

Among other things, hypnosis, anaesthetics and LSD were to be used on the former POWs. In this way, Artichoke hoped to gain insight into the enemy’s interrogation methods and to make sure that the returned soldiers did not work for the other side.

German documentary charges US used biological weapons in Korean War

在接受纪录片采访时,Cournoyer证实了这一点:

美空军确实在朝鲜战争期间测试了生物武器


本帖一共被 2 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
家园 How about

美国公民捍卫中国政府,中国公民围观而哄笑?

于是就有了中国公民捍卫美国政府,美国公民围观而哄笑的场面。

距离产生美, 如此而已

家园 花思炎

对美军的细菌战了解不多,抱着观望学习的态度看完您的大作。

交战国互相扯皮说话掺水的事古今中外都有,但根据经验看MD那边水分更大些。这种事情它们确实如您所说,不会轻易承认的,即便证据就在眼前。

想起河里某大牛的话:让我们口是心非、尔虞我诈,以期得救于将来。它们的上帝存在的意义就是在它们洗掉手上的血迹后,让他们的心灵平静。

家园 在不在国内不知道

不过显然他有别人不具备的信息来源。否则,那一篇一篇内部文件扫描版怎么来的。他的东西,好多是独一份,想验证很难。

家园 没准还是正经的中宣部有关此方面的官员呢

见的不少,到底怎么回事心里明戏着呢。基本可以判断是国内的,而且工作涉及有关文档。

这个组的80后90后小朋友搞不掂,于是大佬们只好出马了。现在跟着看主要的就看他们了,除了有一定的喜剧感,还可以学到不少知识,看到一些体制内的五分党。

好玩,下决心拿出专业队伍来强攻西西河?

家园 其实他们的手法也挺简单的

主要这几点:

1.无视对方的论据与观点,只是一再重复自己的观点,通过观点的不断重复来冲淡对方所提供的信息;

2.采用白马非马的诡辩手段,攻其一点不及其余;

3.不断的转进,一个问题接一个问题,企图把你“胖的拖瘦,瘦的拖跨”,等待你漏洞,有点缝隙就钻。

4.采用抹黑对方的手段企图让读者对作者的立场产生怀疑,试图从动机入手来证明作者的不可信。

这些手法简单归简单,但也是要经过专门培训的,而且不得不承认,还是有相当的杀伤力的。幸好辩论是发生在西河,河友们不像别的地方那么好糊弄,而且基本把辩论语言限制在比较平和的范围内。

通宝推:唐家山,frnkl,思炎,
家园 就算文写的不严谨,不代表中朝方面的指控是错误的

这是两个问题,必须分清楚。M105和M115的外壳下到底装了什么是美军的自由.

使用细菌弹的人员占全体飞行人员的10%是怎么得出来的?你只给了个供认使用了细菌武器的飞行人员数和被俘飞行人员数,中间的推理环节缺失了。

也许有部分人认为不管是M105/115还是别的什么弹,都是把有效的agent直接塞到那几个格子里了事,但实际上使用Cluster Adapter的目的就是为了达到更大范围的更均匀的散布,所以才会有使用子弹(submunition)的问题.

关于密封问题:

1.即使是反植物的生物武器,submunition也是要提供一定程度的密闭保护的,道理很简单,炸弹运输储存装载都是在己方地盘上,泄漏了同样会有大麻烦。50年代(但在朝鲜战争后)美军曾经测试过使用跳蚤的反作物武器,搜索一下E14 munition/E23 munition,一望可知,装了跳蚤又不密封,都从munition里跑出来,怎么达到尽可能大范围的均匀分布呢?

2.既然你承认能感染人的生物炸弹可能不止M33一种,那么您引用的关于M33的图文材料能证明什么?能证明所有的能感染人的生物炸弹都必须是M33那样的结构么?能证明M33内容的108根M114自身不气密以至于需要依靠M33的外壳的气密性来保证安全么?

至于Cluster Adapter内部的结构和装填物,正如我前面所说,主要取决于使用的submunition,我不用去臆想它可以做成什么样子,大家可以参考下数年后出现的装载生物战剂的E120 bomblet外链出处

点看全图

外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

至少以它11.4厘米的直径是完全可以装进M105/M115的,一个更加直观的类比就是诚实约翰(Honest John)火箭可以携带的集束沙林毒气(Sarin)弹头

点看全图

外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

密封到底关键在于弹体外壳还是submunition,这是个值得探讨的问题。我没有找到明确的用于生物弹的Cluster Adapter的外壳规格说明。这里使用装载G类神经毒气沙林的弹头来类比,鉴于沙林的易挥发性,致死性,对装载它的容器的密封性能要求不会低于装载生物战剂和其病媒生物的容器。US Army Chemical Corps关于为斗牛士(MATADOR)陆基巡航导弹配备化学弹头的这份材料<<DEVELOPMENT OF THE E6 GAS WARHEAD

I THE B-61A MATADOR PILOTLESS BOMBER>>外链出处中提到了如下的内容:

1.该弹头可使用E125 cluster adapter,可装载275个E54R6 bombs.

2.通篇只提到了需要"shipping container"具有气密性,而且是在权衡了由E125还是shipping container提供气密性保证的利弊后作出的选择。引文来自该材料的第56页(pdf页码,非文件本身序号)

The matter of storing and shipping the E125 cluster could be

handled in one of two ways. One method would be to design the cluster

adapter in such a manner that it would serve as its own shipping container.

This would entail chiefly hermetically sealing of the cluster adapter and

providing shipping guards for protection and ease of handling. Although

feasible, this approach would require such additional strength in the

adapter as to make the weight prohibitive. Beside the weight consideration,

the loss in payload, estimated to be approximately 70 E54R6 bombs, would

also be serious enough to reduce the warhead effectiveness considerably.

Based on the experience gained in the design of smaller-size clusters (750

and 1,000 lb.) incorporating hermetic sealing, development of a positive

seal for a 3,000-lb. limit is felt to be virtually impossible, considering

the rough handling to which the cluster will be subjected and also the

in-flight vibrations transmitted to the cluster by the missile.

The practical approach is to provide a shipping container

which has incorporated in its design the characteristics necessary to

insure safe storage and delivery of the munition.

简要的说,在同一个时代,生产使用泄漏的危害性不低于细菌战剂的化学战剂的巡航导弹的集束弹头,并不要求其母弹(Cluster Adapter)具有气密性。

家园 突然想起来这个北明不会就是写徐良临阵脱逃的那个吧?
家园 3

1952年4月5日美联社报道,美国众议院拨款小组委员会主席赛克斯在听取了美国化学兵团司令布伦的秘密作证以后,公开对报界说:“他(指布伦)说,在敌人领土上散播细菌的工具是简单的,这种装备现在部队已有充分储存……如目前用以投掷宣传传单的容器。”

是当年的文章

外链出处

现在要证明的事情:

1.Norman对他的经历没有说谎(多半无解)

2. California history professor, Kathryn Olmstead, has discovered documents at the Gerald Ford library

文件在福特图书馆的具体位置,手抄一份了事。

家园 这个总结太赞了

对比较认真的河友,他们基本采用1(无视方的论据与观点)和3(不断的转进);对推理逻辑能力差一点的河友,基本采用2(白马非马的诡辩)把人气死;经常用4对河友进行骚扰,尤其是对旅居海外的河友,再者就是用4的手段抹黑河友引用资料的原作者。

补充一点:5.总喜欢代表别人,喜欢给人归类。

家园 就是那位。萨苏曾专门撰文揭她的脸皮

萨苏:给北明先生 我所见的徐良 之一。老萨也发在河里了萨苏:【原创】徐良说:你比我牛啊。

引用二段

关于徐良这篇文章,我可真是笑不出来了。那倒不是觉得有人给徐泼脏水,而是为作者北明先生悲哀,您就算造假,也稍微下点儿功夫好不好,说起来北明先生还是有名气的作家呢,我对“作家”这两个字,从来没有感到这样的廉价,这以后还怎么让大伙儿读您的文章呢。

最后,听北明先生说徐良是无期徒刑,就发一张他“服刑期间”的照片吧。2000年徐良访问老山看望战友的照片,作者老山之眸。粗粗一看,这小子好像“服刑期间”还升了中校了。。。

以下是北明的文章,也是引发我写作这篇关于徐良的文字的原因。后来我才知道,北明原来是《柏林墙故事》的作者,那篇文章我曾为之深深感动,所以当读到这篇关于徐良的文章时,我惊讶于其荒唐,更深的,是痛切于作者竟然是这位北明。

后来才知道,这时的北明,已经是美国自由亚洲电台“华盛顿手记”专题节目的主持人了,不能不慨叹一句 -- 政治,对一个人的良心来说,是何等的可怕。

关于北明,有河友说hopeful:北明似乎不是马悲鸣

通宝推:思炎,深夜腌的萝卜丝,
家园 好了,连文学者都承认的事情,你还在这里狡辩什么呢?

我就在这里给你贴一点东西好了。

点看全图

外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

这个是文老先生自己去采访志愿军当年的俘管人员(曾亲自参加细菌战飞行员的审问)所得。

点看全图

外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

按照供词所得美军参加朝鲜细菌战的单位以及分布情况。 连专责空优的两个F-86联队都有,我也不知道说什么好了。

点看全图

外链图片需谨慎,可能会被源头改

文学者根据供词提出的细菌战演进过程,分明已经是大规模使用。

关于所谓密封问题,最简单的说一点,你还是回去把志愿军的东西好好过一遍,看看人家是怎么说的,再上来扯其他的不迟。

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