主题：【文摘】北美独立战争: 美国人编出来的神话 -- 李根
是后面的,拿破仑三世时候,法国一度联合美国大家英国,效果不错,只是对美国而言,但是法国人银子花了不少,好处没捞到,估计也是依了这老传统.
他们对待志愿军的态度原来是师从当年的美国人啊！前途伟大。
常败将军华地主之歌
骑白马，挎洋枪，
华哥哥去打印地安。
有心要把税来征，
忽而嗨哟，
他娘的那群蛮子不干！
battles you lost. What matters is whether you won the final battle that determines the history.
BTW, do not follow the ignorant post above--Americans do know that they won independence with French help and they do acknowledge that. Any Chinese who read some English books in States should know that.
BTW, the fact that the support to American Independence War bankrupted French treasury shows how stupid Frenchmen are. Simple/period.
Americans respect G.W. not because of his final victory in Charlestown or Saratoga, but because
1. He was the top military leader who prevented the coup orchestrated by his unpaid officers against the continental congress in Philadelphia.
2. He was the military leader who VOLUNTARILY gave up top military position and bowed down to a nervous civilian congress. He transferred the power peacefully back to the American people.
3. He was the man who brokered many compromises during the Constitutional Conference and ensured the smooth birth of first democratic constitution, and thus a young non-monarch republic in American continent.
4. He was the president who defeated the temptation of power and left White House after two terms. He became an precedent against any future power-greedy president.
America almost became another Haiti/France/Roman Julian Empire, but Washington, at this historical crossroad, chose not to be another Dessalines/Napoleon/Julius Caesar.
As you wrote in your own post: sometimes, one or two leaders determine the fate of his nation. It applied to France/Germany, as well as US and China.
In comparison, Chairman Mao won tons of battles and killed millions of adversary soldiers. As I recalled, he never lost one battle. He was a great statesman, strategist, military commander, poet...
But HIS LAST BATTLE AGAINST THE EVIL SIDE OF POWER WAS A TOTAL DEFEAT AND YOU STILL LIVE IN HIS LEGACY.
The fact that the 常败将军华地主之歌 still existed in literature and got widely spread, or even translated into Chinese shows that Washington actually wins: he left a nation in which people ARE NOT AFRAID OF SPEAKING THEIR MIND.
In China, you could not find any song against Mao, except for tons of songs praising him. That just shows abnormality of the chinese society due to the lack of freedom of speech.
Period.
美国人自己确实没有大力否认涂改和转移，这个文章主要打的是媚美的中资精蝇的脸，对美国人属于误伤。
随便拿起几本美国出版有关军事历史的杂志，肯定能找到讲独立战争如何如何的文章，里面的坦率和讥嘲随处可见，这也是美国人的优良传统之一，可惜近年正在失去中。上周末在图书馆还看见一篇，标题大概是揭开《独立战争的迷雾》，几个大段，分别讲的大概是下面的内容（经俺娱乐化了）：
“别以为美国人当兵是为了反抗暴政、独立自由，其实就TMD是为了拿高工资！”
“谁说花生炖是战略奇才？他不过是血勇而已，短于战略规划，有点小聪明。不信？这里有他自个儿给国会的信作证。。。”
“法国人的作用是否被夸大？实事求是的讲，说得还不够呢！”
“民兵经常被描绘成无足轻重。但是告诉你，他们太TNND重要了。。。”
但是问题不在美国人。他们是否实事求是关俺屁事，俺要的是自己搞清楚实际情况。
媚美的中资精蝇们通过选择裁减编辑史料，把美国说成自独立战争以来便是英明神武，战无不胜的，十三州小土寡民破枪烂炮，就能平灭大英帝国海陆大军，这真是阿美利加版义和团故事：只要大喊独立万岁，民主自由，自然达到刀枪不入的境界，再强大的敌人自然墙橹灰飞烟灭，坚船利炮的战场现实是无足轻重的。俺这一辈的人多半是读这种缺心眼或者坏心眼的人文方面教科书长大的，这些书，尤其是世界历史书，是带毒的，是把人往沟里带的。俺被灌输了大量诸如美国主要靠自己力量打赢独立战争、波兰一贯爱好和平总是被侵略等等富含三氯氰胺的修正主义狼奶，但是俺总得用黑色的眼睛寻找光明不是？！
不信您就看看这个人教版高中历史教材说课稿，或者再看看这个岳麓版高中历史PPT课件，哪里有一处提到法国人，完完全全是在营造美国神话。
俺从不以出身看人，当然更不以历史上的粗糙、窘迫、张皇或者龌龊否定某个国家的成就。每一棵参天大树都是由一颗靴跟便可碾碎的种子发育而来，“当汉谟拉比法典已经埋在沙子里千年后，当埃及人已经把金字塔种得像树林一样时，华夏的祖先不过是黄河流域的一个小部落”，俺们自己也是这样过来的。俺要反的，是这种“无脑跟顶”式的对美国的盲目崇拜，甚至不惜故意篡改史料来欺骗未成年人和成年人的行为。只要大家都明白了“原来强大如美国，其开端不过是碰上了好时机和冤大头，果然英雄不问出处”，这个目的就达到了。此文不是俺写的，俺只是转摘，但是从大家的反应来看，信息量十分丰富，有启发作用。更重要的是，此文手把手地传授了如何从历史细节中挖掘真相的手段，所谓授人以鱼不如授人以渔，如此好文不转何待。如果是俺自己来写文章，当然会讲清楚美国人在这个问题上比较实事求是，但是美国人又看不懂中文，他是否被误伤关俺鸟事。
再来说一说花生炖。他只是一个临时的军事领袖，碰巧在一帮造反派中有一个懂点军事的，能力平平好过没有，那就是他没跑了，反正万一被镇压，总得有人带头上绞架。当了总司令乃至总统以后，连军饷也没有着落，这种情况下想当皇帝，下场真的是要惨过袁大头。亲王写过一篇搞笑文，深挖花生炖从来就没有过当皇帝的想法的原因，不会没看过吧。
俺们讨论法国在美国独立战争中的作用，是你扯出毛和华的比较。毛打过一堆一堆的败仗，干过一堆一堆的烂事，但是他把衰颓不堪、山穷水尽、眼看就要变成无数个海地的中国生拖死拽出了谷底，第一次建立现代意义上的国防力量、国家机器和产业基础，重新解放中国人民自信和强悍的灵魂，其功业岂是因人成事者所能想望。对于如何处理权力和地位的问题，曹操说过，“不可慕虚名而处实祸也”。华没有搞终身制，这是当时形势决定的，没有慕皇帝的虚名而处树倒猢狲散的实祸；毛搞了终身制，这也是当时形势决定的，没有慕让贤退位的虚名而处乱邦祸国的实祸。你把搞不搞终身制理解为“和对权力的渴望所做的终极斗争”，实属老江所评价之香港记者的水平。
花生炖常败，这是事实，小儿歌之有何怪哉。总不能把毛唱成打的败仗超过胜仗，靠了苏联才打赢的吧。至于说中国没有嘲讽毛的歌曲，这不能怪没有言论自由。不信你到某些论坛上，骂毛的文章悍牛冲洞，庆猪难鼠，至于为啥现在还木有一首骂毛的歌曲流传于民间，那真的只能怪他们的艺术能力低下，五音不全不通音律，搞不出人民群众喜闻乐见的文艺作品来，干言论自由甚事！要是你屈尊到台湾去听，莫说针对毛，还有打击面更大的、更加有想象力的版本和形式体裁，诗文歌画应有尽有，大可充作琵琶曲供足下清听，以达“如听仙乐耳暂鸣”之效果。
您喜欢用Period，来表示此乃定论，无须啰嗦，言尽于此，恕不远送一类意思。这容易被理解成不让别人发表意见，会受到不讲民主的指责。况且英语人士莫名其妙，喜欢搞首字母缩写。这个Period的首字母既然是P，那还是劝您把它就当个P放了吧。
不花没人性!
总统大人，小朋友这样回答要被老师打屁屁啊。我回家找一份新鲜出炉的某重点高中历史试卷，刚好有一道华同学当不当皇帝的题目。应试教育害人就害在这里。
That's China's problem, not America's problem. You should blame your compatriots, not Americans. They do not ask you to distort and misreport their history.
俺要反的，是这种“无脑跟顶”式的对美国的盲目崇拜，甚至不惜故意篡改史料来欺骗未成年人和成年人的行为。i see, it is actually a CIVIL WAR of words. ^-^
BTW, I do not worship America. When I read American history, I read only books written in English. I know Chinese textbooks have the naive problem as you mentioned. Actually, we often joked in the past that People's Daily has only the publication date that's trustworthy.
People got poisoned because there is uniformed textbook in China's educational system. The textbooks are reviewed and approved by China's gov. You should blame your own educational system back there.
If you allow different school districts to decide which textbook they want to use and leave the textbook decision in the hands of local people, you will not have this problem because people will be aware of different texts, different views or perspectives, and there will be competition in the book market.
I saw such practice in both high schools as well as universities. Even in business school education, different schools can teach different or even contradictory perspectives/theory. I know this because I am in this system. There is constant competition, therefore, there is NO "orthodox" textbook.
As to my judgment of Mao, I keep mine, you keep yours. Let's agree to disagree. I do not want to debate further. The fact is that more Chinese immigrated to America than Americans immigrated to China. Benefit of freedom is not visible or tangible, you only feel it when you live in it.
I do not care about lip service. Where people put their ass usually indicate where they truly prefer after careful consideration. People are rational in maximizing self-interests, though lip service often gives others the opposite impression.
As to whether G.W. can put himself as the emperor. The fact was that his army was underpaid and his officers stormed into the Congress building, almost put the Congress under military control if G.W. did not block them. 2000 years ago, Caesar intentionally used underpaid soldiers and their anger against senate to wipe out Roman Republic. He succeeded. I do not think G.W. could not do the same thing if he wanted. Anyway Napoleon chose Caesar's path and he was adored by Frenchmen even today. Of course, G.W. would have killed many smart competiting politicians and his gov. could only be a dictatorship. While, throughout the world, that was normal at that time. America might have descended into Haiti V2. Anyway, 枪杆子里面出政权, as to tax revenue, you can use gun to collect just as people do in Africa. KMT gov. did similar things before 1949.
当了总司令乃至总统以后，连军饷也没有着落，这种情况下想当皇帝，下场真的是要惨过袁大头。亲王写过一篇搞笑文，深挖花生炖从来就没有过当皇帝的想法的原因，不会没看过吧。Again, it is a personal judgment, you believe it will not happen in America, while, I believe it could. I read serious English studies in States. I guess American historians knew better than Chinese forum posters.
Again, I want to emphasize a common sense: cultural revolution was initiated and planned by Mao. I never question his other achievements, but if he could have transferred power more peacefully to other competent successors and help China established a civilized power transfer system, he would have been a perfect statesman adored by many generations.
Unfortunately, he took another path. That's his choice as well as his limitation.
As to 不信你到某些论坛上，骂毛的文章悍牛冲洞. That's cyberspace which is so difficult to filter and control. You have not read 骂毛的文章published in serious paper print or in any mainstream media back in China. That's indicative of the TRUE level of media freedom.
I want to reminded you that the following RECENT top Chinese leaders did not have a peaceful ending in their career/life: Hu Yaobang, Zhao Zhiyang. Political uncertainty is still a big risk in China, admit it or not.
As to 对美国的盲目崇拜, I quoted one artcile from Blah blah.
第一个层次我称为高楼大厦崇拜，就是认为高楼大厦就是先进，灯光越多越好，人流越旺越好，这个层次上对美国失望的一般在才下飞机的或者走马看花旅游的，而且通常是期望很高那种，期望越高失望越大。
过了这个层次，就是"我也有"心理，特别集中在当年想出国没出成的人身上，一般在国内奋斗成就不错，就老喜欢说你美国有这个我们也有，我们有这个你没有吧。这个阶层比高楼大厦有所进步，因为看得多了，开始多方位比较，上至地铁干净度，下至交通灯灯号都要比一比，以找到美国落后的地方为荣。
再上一个层次，就是住过美国一段时间，接触过美国傻瓜的人，以海龟为多。因为以前中国人神化了外国，总认为外国人就是有道德，有智商(some authors attacked by you are at this level; laughing stock for me too)，在这里生活了一段时间就知道蠢蛋坏人处处有，发展中国家的集中率比较高而已。这开始脱离表面的硬件崇拜，开始了软件比较。
再往上就是生活工作了一段时间，开始全方位地了解美国，从盲目崇拜到崇拜破灭到重新欣赏，到真正懂得美国为什么强大而难以复制，从简单的硬件软件比较到了解整个国家崛起的背景历史渊源，从而知道她真正的力量，所以即使认为美国好，不是崇拜这个国家，而是崇拜形成这个国家的自然力量。I am at this stage.
As to 这种缺心眼或者坏心眼的人文方面教科书 authors, they are my laughing stock long time ago, since I had direct access to English books.
In sum, language skill is the power. It enlightens one ahead of many peers. 北美独立战争: 美国人编出来的神话--actually, this article is a Chinese CIVIL FIGHT. Unfortunately, Americans were used as a Chinese CIVIL FIGHT weapon.
(When I studied French history, I also spent time learning French. Through the French perspective and texts, I find better understanding of their history than through the English text. I recommend this approach to everyone on this forum. Learning a foreign language could be great fun and is not so difficult at all. AT LEAST SUCH SKILL GIVES YOU THE CAPABILITY TO DE-BRAINWASH WHAT WAS BRAINWASHED INTO YOUR MIND BY THE CHINESE EDUCATION).
俺懂了，您是早就明白了的，但也得帮助俺们广大受毒害的群众明白起来啊！
要是俺能早点读到各种版本的历史书，自然也就不会在几年前，还把这个内容很基础很白话的真相文来当宝贝，屁颠屁颠转到西西河给大家看。
拿美国人和美国历史当武器，这也是没有办法的办法。精蝇就吃这个，只有把美国的裙子在群众面前掀一掀（虽然美国人自己经常掀，无奈精蝇统统当作看不见），把事实讲一讲，才能破除迷信，解放思想，顺便把精蝇的偶像崇拜和贩卖私货的代理权打掉。您的见解早就在三楼以上了，俺们还在这里吭哧吭哧地从地下室往一楼爬，您也不能只笑话俺们水平低而不拉一把呀。比如要求俺学第二外语，还是把俺打回高中好吧。
强烈建议搞个多版本的同一段历史的对比介绍，肯定可以起到启迪民智的作用。
你说的是特殊取样人群吧？ 美国精英？
大街上的美国人可没几个象你这么想的。至少波士顿freedom trail的美国游客听到的故事不象你说的版本。
再者说，人的言行和思想认识是两回事。 对中国人有影响的是普通美国人的言行。只要普通美国人的言论和行为上还是体现出楼主所说的“错误认识”、“占据意识形态制高点” 。 那普通美国人或精英美国人思想认识上是否承认事实， 这根本就对中国人没意义。
本来就是宣传仗，不是学术仗。重要的不仅仅是事实是什么。 最重要的是中美群众听到的是那个版本的“事实”
所以，个人认为：
"Americans do know that they won independence with French help and they do acknowledge that. Any Chinese who read some English books in States should know that."
should be changed to
"Americans do not know that they won independence with French help and they do not acknowledge that. Any Chinese who lives among Americans should know that."
常败将军华地主之歌二
西方绿，月儿圆，
华哥哥持枪把地圈。
抓一群黑鬼把活干，
忽而嗨哟，
骑马挥鞭把工监！
the high school history books?
It is up to you if you want to intentionally change my sentence. In my American friend circle, everybody knows the French involvement in the American Independence War.
Tourist talk is for fun. We are talking about serious historical records known to the mainstream people, not some high-school drop-outs flipping burgers in McDonald or mid-west rednecks or Southern hillbillies who have never been to NYC in their life.