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主题:我对进化论的一些看法兼与流云商榷 -- 数字马甲

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家园 我觉得这是文化交融的结果

圣经有来自佛教《百喻经》的内容,已有定论。《古兰经》有三分之一的内容与圣经故事有关。应该说,这属于不同文化体系的交叉、渗透、融合与相互影响。

古埃及文明和古巴比伦文明是人类最早的文化体系,诞生在耶路撒冷的基督教含有上述文明的成份,再正常不过。

此外,基督教的起源还与印度教有一定关系。密特拉教是罗马帝国时期的秘传宗教之一。密特拉原为上古印度——伊朗的神灵之一,二千年前已经产生,见印度教经典《犁俱吠陀》。这一神灵公元前一百年左右传入罗马,形成宗教。罗马帝国基督教化后,这一宗教慢慢消失。考古发现的该教遗迹特别出是碑铭,表明该教故事、教义、议轨和制度,不少与后来的基督教极其相似。相当一部人认为,该教至少对早期基督教的形成深有影响。

BTW:人类一些史前传说,也有共同性。诺亚方舟这样的大洪水故事,在多个文明体系中存在。我少年时看过一本汉民族神话故事,其中雷公诞生,就是在洪水泛滥之时。这里面反映的到底是什么,用文化交融肯定解释不了,其破解要待将来了。

家园 好文,花之
家园 文章移到前面

请看前面,谢谢

家园 bible里和现代道德观不和的经文

回复马甲兄的

麻烦您把原文给出来,然后我会试着谈谈我的看法和理解。

这样的经文,在圣经里不是一处两处。我并不是说基督徒都是这样,相反,我相信决大多数人有很好的道德。那么他们的道德显然不是全部从圣经里得到的,而他们读圣经,也会有选择性的接受,而忽略掉这些不符合他们道德观的经文(当然也可能他们从来没有读过圣经的这些经文),也就是你所说的“断章取义”。不是吗?

但是你可以对这些经文作出符合现代道德观的解释,哪我就洗耳聆听。

这些经文是King James版本的经文。可以在这个网站上对证http://bible.cc/。

God demands we kill everone who do not believe in God

First Commandaments - You shalt have no other Gods before me.

Deuteronmoy 17:2-7

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant,

And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded;

And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel:

Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

God Demands that we kill everyone who works on Sabbath day

Exodus 35:2 - Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.

God demand we kill disobedient teenagers

Deuteronomy 21:18-21

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:

Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;

And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.

And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

God demands the death of homosexuals

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

God demands that we kill girls who are not virgin when they marry.

Deuteronomy 22:13-21

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

God supports slavery

Exodus 21:20-21

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Colossians 3:22-24

Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God;

And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Ephesians 6:5 - Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ;

1 peter 2:18 - Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

And so on ....

家园 关于创世纪的一些疑问

关于创世纪(the book of genesis)

1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

上帝创造了光,白天和黑夜,但是它还没有创造发光的物体-太阳!没有太阳,怎么有白天黑夜?

1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

1:7 And God made the firmament and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

上帝并没有直接创造植物,它说“Let the earth bring forth grass”。看来上帝也不是那么反对进化论。

1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

1:13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

"Signs"? Zodiac? 看来上帝已经知道生肖符号,所以预先把星球放在合适的位置。

1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

白天的光,和晚上的光?是不是很可笑。天上的宇航员又是看到什么光?那里可没有白天黑夜。

如果所有星球都是用来给球创造光的,那为什么只有极少的星球可以被看见?人类凭肉眼只可以看到几千个星星,想一下我们银河系就有一千亿个!

1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

1:19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

从水里出生物?这怎么看起来像进化论。

先就这些吧

家园 进化论缺陷是明确的,但神创论当作自己的武器就可笑了

寒武纪大爆炸,进化论没有给出可以说服人的解释。神创论有些人,就觉得捡到了宝,因为上帝创造万物,可以联系起来:就是在寒武纪造的么。

那么白垩纪那事,进化论还是莫衷一是不知所以,上帝干了什么?

家园 同意

争论往往就是往牛角尖里面钻的开始,多年前在大学寝室里面和同学谈基督教信仰,都是高材生么,所以自然而然就你说一个达尔文学说不是真理缺乏中间段证据,我说一个神创论幼稚可笑,他说一个那么最初的物质怎么来的...生物遗传历史物理天文等等辨的脸红脖子粗,最后谁也没能说服谁。那个时候年轻的我想,唉,你老人家打开天空,下来一趟我这传道的工作不就结了么... :)

昨天和朋友一起又看了一遍‘Evan Almighty',这个其实蛮搞笑的喜剧在IMDB上面得分只有5.6,也许可能是影迷觉得没有‘Bruce Almighty’那么疯狂搞笑。里面有个小细节让我不由得又想起了上面那个事情,Baxtor面对摩根弗里曼扮演的上帝是一百个不相信,尽管上帝就坐在他面前,直接跟他谈话,给他显示了不少的小‘神迹’但是仍然费尽了功夫才让他明白上帝不是一个跟踪他的疯老头子。我想Baxtor面对上帝的反应应该是代表了绝大多数人的自然反应(如果也有这样的机会,呵呵),我觉得人类的Free Will就是自由选择的权利是上帝给予的(或者说天赐吧),就算直接面对着他,他也会让你自己选择是信还是不信。

其实纯粹的唯心和唯物不存在也对我们没有意义,我在饭前会感恩祷告但是也相信要认真工作挣钱才能买到好吃的东西。其实你也可以像Baxtor一样祷告,自己问问上帝你存在吗?不需要先念阿里麻里哄(我母亲至今以为基督教和佛教差不多),也不需要最后一定要阿门,把心静下来直接问他就可以了,默念出声都无所谓,呵呵,说不定他会回答你的哦(是什么方式我可不知道了) *^_^*

家园 又见到了试图用神学理论去干涉科学理论的现象

不错,进化论的理论里面充满了假设和猜想,但这正是科学的本质特征,科学从来没像神学那样,说自己是不可证伪的。事实上,达尔文的著作里本身就存在着不少缺陷和错误,他的某些观点未必就符合事实。但他的这些错误与缺陷,却决不能用来证明神创论就是正确的。

您要信基督以及神创论,那是您个人的信仰自由,自己信着就行了,就不必在日常生活中试图以自己的知识层次去批驳进化论了,更不必试图在批驳进化论的同时附带宣传神创论。

进化论可不是神创论,会被您引用的那篇网文那么简单的就批倒,它是被从教士到学者,反复批驳了无数次,质疑了无数次,从而在不断的补充证据和完善理论中逐渐发展成熟的,然而这种不断的完善自身的过程,就是它从假说成为科学理论的过程,也是科学之所以能成为科学的精髓。

本来我一直在想,神学与科学最好是互不相干,各管各的,你信你的上帝,我以科学的世界观来指导自己的行为。但现在看来似乎这个想法太幼稚,现实生活中步步进逼过来的,正是宗教势力,科学一旦不主动去占领人们的思想阵地,宗教就会反过来要试图把科学赶出去。

不好意思,才发现跟的竟然是个挖坟贴……

家园 问个问题,你所说的进化论是指现今的进化论还是拉马克那个?
家园 神学家现在都跟拾荒的似的。。

救命稻草猛抢啊。。

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