主题：【原创】普世价值 -- MRandson
家园 英国有一段也是这个理由 理由总是好找的，实质是不变的，政治权利怎么能随便分给别人？
我记得美国历史上有个政治家说过一段话，大意是：“我财产中包括一头驴，有这头驴，我的财产就过线，没有这头驴，我的财产就不过线。如果明年我的这头驴死了，我就没有选举权了。那么究竟是这头驴，还是我有选举权？”
想不起这位政治家是谁了。
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- 复 【原创】普世价值
家园 【求助】欧美历史上发生过工人争取普选权的运动吗？ 不与财产挂钩的普选权是工人争取来的，是资本家不得不接受的。资本家迫于工人的压力，或者口是心非地承认工人拥有普选权，或者为了避免更大的损失，主动让步给予工人普选权。所以，普选权是工人认可的价值，是资本家被动而不是主动认可的价值。安德森说的这段真的在历史上发生过？还是他移花接木的把历史上发生过的工人争取更高工资和更多休息权的运动给置换成了争取普选权的运动？
貌似美国白人是一直就有选举权的，不管是工人还是资本家
欧洲我不清楚，希望对欧洲工运史比较了解的人出来说说，欧美什么时候发生过工人争取普选权的运动---妇女争取选举权的运动是发生过的，妇女中也有工人，但是这与安德森的结论是不搭界的
家园 19末20初世纪工人上街的时候，大多数民主国家早普选了。 无产阶级的独立政治意识觉醒，基本上和获得选举权同步。毕竟普选不单只是无产阶级得益，有更多更有政治敏感的群体也会去争取。无产阶级本身在这方面反而要落后一点。共产党是先锋队不是白说的。
History of suffrage in the United KingdomSee also: History of British society
See also: The Parliamentary Franchise in the United Kingdom 1885-1918
Suffrage in the United Kingdom was slowly changed over the course of the 19th and 20th centuries to allow universal suffrage through the use of the Reform Acts and the Representation of the People Acts.
* Reform Act 1832 - extended voting rights to adult males who rented propertied land of a certain value, so allowing 1 in 7 males in the UK voting rights
* Reform Act 1867 - enfranchised all male householders, so increasing male suffrage to the United Kingdom
* Representation of the People Act 1884 - amended the Reform Act of 1867 so that it would apply equally to the countryside; this brought the voting population to 5,500,000, although 40% of males were still disenfranchised, whilst women could not vote
* Between 1885-1918 moves were made by the suffragette movement to ensure votes for women. However, the duration of the First World War stopped this reform movement. See also The Parliamentary Franchise in the United Kingdom 1885-1918.
* Representation of the People Act 1918 - the consequences of World War I persuaded the government to expand the right to vote, not only for the many men who fought in the war who were disenfranchised, but also for the women who helped in the factories and elsewhere as part of the war effort. Property restrictions for voting were lifted for men, who could vote at 21; however women's votes were given with these property restrictions, and were limited to those over 30 years old. This raised the electorate from 7.7 million to 21.4 million with women making up 40% of the electorate. Seven percent of the electorate had more than one vote. The first election with this system was the United Kingdom general election, 1918
* Representation of the People Act 1928 - this made women's voting rights equal with men, with voting possible at 21 with no property restrictions
History of suffrage in the United StatesMain article: Voting rights in the United States
In the United States, suffrage is determined by the separate states, not federally. However, the "right to vote" is expressly mentioned in five Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. These five Amendments limit the basis upon which the right to vote may be abridged or denied:
* 14th Amendment (1868): Regarding apportionment of Representatives.
* 15th Amendment (1870): "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude."
* 19th Amendment (1920): "The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex."
家园 MRanderson其实臆造了一个词语“普选权” 实际上，与公民权利相对应的是选举权和被选举权，而不是什么“普选权”
选举权和被选举权，中国工人早就有了，至于是什么样的选举方式，是直接民主还是间接民主，还是什么代议制民主，这个工人不会去关心的
问题在于中国工人早就有了选举权和被选举权，所以如果anderson使用选举权和被选举权的概念的话，那么他的文章也就无法得到那么多朵的花了
总的来说工人阶级是需要斗争，但是在现在的中国，工人的斗争主要是对那些资本家进行斗争，而不是争取什么普选权
貌似普选本身也不构成为一种权利，只有选举和被选举才构成为一种权利
家园 19世纪英国的宪章运动？
