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  • 家园 衲子说因果

    衲子说因果

    (1)相互作用有延时

    大家一定都知道牛顿定律中的一条: 作用力等于反作用力. 但大家可能不一定想过, 该定律的完成是需要一定延时的. 微观上, 相互作用是以交换作用力粒子, 如光子(电磁作用, 包含机械力等大多数我们日常遇到的力), 引力子(万有引力), 及强弱相互作用所牵涉到的基本粒子, 的方式进行的. 这些作用力粒子的产生, 传播, 及湮灭都需要一定时间. 当然, "作用力等于反作用力"对包含这些作用力粒子的所有对象而言是处处瞬时成立的, 但如果把作用力粒子当作媒介,仅对作用力的终端受/授两者而言, 该作用力是有延时的.

    (2)守恒定律有涨落

    例如, 真空中可以产生一对虚光子, 随即湮灭. 这样的过程, 即:先欠你一份能量 过会马上归还, 时时刻刻都在进行. 又如物体在其运动轨迹上随时都可以作虚位移, 只是这些路径的贡献加起来为零. 也就是说, 虽然有守恒律的制约, 并不等于粒子们不作越轨的尝试, 只是这些'虚'越轨马上会被拉回来.

    (3)嵌套的因果律?

    准独立的系统单元(比如, 研究地球的运行轨迹时,可将它零级近似成为一个质点; 然而地震预测是在对付一个强耦合的非线形系统, 就非常非常难!) 用物理定律可以很好地描述并作出颇为准确的预测. 但现实上, 任何系统之间多少都有耦合(一般地,模型把外界的影响归为噪声), 再加上对体系初始态的测量误差, 预测的准确性是有限制的. 由量子力学及非线性科学的结论得知,这种预测的准确性是受理论而不仅仅是技术的限制. 因此,用已知的物理定律基于理想的简化的模型所作出的因果预测, 通常是"短期"的. 我们把这叫做短期因果. 当然.这个"短期"是相对而言的, 取决于该理想模型究竟有多好. 譬如对星系的运动的预测, 就可以轻易地准确到上百万年.

    我们现在的讨论对象, 是那些强烈依赖于外界耦合的系统, 它们的非"经典"效应更为显著. 那些通常被归为噪声的外界影响, 真的只是随机的噪声吗, 还是具有某种目前尚不为人知的结构? 譬如你截获加密了的通讯, 虽然看似白噪声, 但实际是有结构的, 只是其编码不为你所知罢了. 由于体系的非线性, 只要稍微改变一点外界的输入(完全在这噪声的statistics的范围之内), 就能使该系统在一定时间以后达到截然不同的状态. 比如: 两个癌症病人, 都是DNA复制时出了差错, 导致细胞的癌变, 并开始疯狂繁殖, 一个病人一年后死了, 而另一个却在一年后痊愈了. 这两个系统的演变, 每一步都合理, 无非是外界输入的噪声有所不同, 用现在的科学也能解释, 就是碰运气啦(null hypothesis H0). 但另一种学说的观点是, 冥冥之中有一个长程的因果律支配着. 也就是说, 所谓的白噪声并不是完全随机, 而是由某种守恒律支配的具有长程关联性的隐变量的体现(H1). 这并不与已知的短期因果相矛盾, 因为每一步都可以用短期因果+噪声来解释.

    孰是孰非呢? 你想, 那好, 我们设计一个对比实验来验证. 且慢, not so easy! 问题的根源在于无处不在的关联性, 甚至于客观/主观并不能被分为不相干的两者, 如何杜绝外界的影响, 控制实验对象, 实验方法呢? 就像一个人陷于"普遍联系"的大蜘蛛网中, 想要做实验来研究附近网点上的一个物体的动力学特征, 殊不知他自己的举手投足(甚至起心动念)都会引起蜘蛛网的颤动, 干扰了该物体的运动方程.

    (4)通常的怀疑论点

    老衲直接跳到佛法的观点(施主信与不信, 姑妄听之):

    i) 善恶之报,如影随形. (此句并非出自佛经, 但深合佛理)

    疑问a: 为什么好人没有好报, 坏人却常常逍遥法外?

    答: 不是不报, 时候未到. 见(1), 果报是有延时的. 有时果报迅速, 有时却要等到别的机缘成熟才行, 可能是下辈子的事了.

    疑问b: 既然有你所谓的守恒律支配, 为什么还会有人作奸犯科? 久远劫来,系统应该达到稳态, 应该不会再有你欠我的, 我欠你的还没还清.

    答: 见(2), 真空也有涨落. 要是没有涨落, 真空就永远寂静, 不会摇动而生出大千世界, 众生也不会堕于六道轮回了.

    ii) 六道轮回

    疑问a: 真有吗?

    答: 有神通的人能够看见. 修道者在定中也能照见. 人在被催眠状态下, 也能看见自己(及亲人)的前世, 如: Brian Weiss 所著 <<Many Lives, Many Masters>> (美国各地的公共图书馆都有, 在台湾翻作<<前世今生>>)

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0671657860/002-4197838-8327230

    Ian Stevenson <<Twenty Cases Suggestive of Reincarnation>>

    http://www.near-death.com/experiences/reincarnation01.html

    这些不是幻觉, 而是可以作预测, 被验证的.

    疑问b: 世人造业, 一方面是由于贪嗔痴, 另一方面是由于昧于因果. 如果人们能记住自己的前世, 更进一步, 要是不用转世投胎, 岂非大妙?

    答: 多少人能记得自己3岁以前的事? 就算没有隔世之迷, 许多人照样会为了追随目前的利益/享乐而忘掉过去的教训. 只要是物质的东西, 都会有"成住坏灭"的过程, 人的色身亦然. "生老病死"的苦, 六道众生由于他们的业力牵引是免不了的, 除非能真正解脱.

    ---

    为何贴在"科学探索", 而不是"文化百家"?

    老衲也是从事科研工作的, 深感科学家们的品德才华 实在是人中上上之选(可不是王婆卖瓜啊). 但有时正因为对自己的知识过于自信,所谓"知见障"(知识造成的障碍),而不能亲近佛法, 憾甚. 一百多年前的物理学家以为物理学的大厦已经落成, 只剩下装修的工作了. 孰料二十年内天翻地覆. 现在的大众恐怕也以为物理学在概念上已经差不多了, 只剩下万有引力与电磁力的统一, 看来膜理论应该能做到此点. 其它目前科学不能解释的现象, 肯定都是骗人的把戏. 嘿嘿, 没准二十年内又会发生革命性的突破, 彻底颠覆传统的物理观念. 到时候不要手足无措啊.


    本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
    • 家园 衲子说因果(续完)

      现在可以总结如下

      ----

      因果律假说:

      [接前节定义] 设有两个生命系统, 以它们各自的流形,M1和M2,表示. 如果M1与M2发生相互作用, 具体来说, M1施加于M2上一个法向的扰动, 那么因果律是说: 一定时间后, M1也将受到一个发生于其上的法向的扰动.

      ----

      就像是牛顿定律在弯曲空间的对应, 哈哈 (这一句是胡乱猜测, 大侠们莫砸砖.)

    • 家园 八卦一篇: 梁武帝的前世今生(简略版)

      南朝皇帝梁武帝萧衍, (在位48年,寿86岁, 其高寿在中国历代皇帝中仅次于乾隆), 崇尚佛教,大兴土木,建寺造院,故有"南朝四百八十寺"之盛况.

      ---------------------------

      一个小插曲: 达摩来中国传法, 由广州登陆, 到南京会梁武帝. 武帝问达摩祖师他为佛教做了如此广大的布施有何功德?

      达摩答:没有功德。

      梁武帝急了:为什么没有功德?

      达摩说:这只是人天小果,有漏之因,如影随形。虽有善因,不是实相。

      武帝问:怎样才是功德?

      达摩说:净智妙圆,体自空寂;如是功德,不以世求。

      会谈不欢而散, 达摩遂一苇渡江北上,后卓锡于少林寺。

      ---------------------------

      然武帝晚年时 侯景在梁作乱,攻占建业,武帝终被囚禁饿死。

      是何因果? 武帝前生有一世曾把一只猴子堵塞在山洞里饿死, (中间牵扯的其它故事略)等他转生为梁武帝时便要抵偿恶因而遭受到??酷的果报.

      梁武帝的今生投生为美国白人, 并已于旧金山附近的万佛城出家,法名恒朝,师从宣化上人. 他和恒实两位法师曾从洛杉矶的金轮寺三步一拜, 一直拜到北加州的万佛城, 从一九七七年五月至一九七九年十月, 历时共二十九个月. 他们的这次经历, 可参见<<修行者的消息>> bookgb.bfnn.org/article/0430.htm

      (不求大家相信, 就当故事听着玩好了.)

    • 家园 也说因果,说错了你不许笑。

      因是起点,果是终点。比如说拿起一把钥匙去开一把锁,起点是拿钥匙,终点是锁开。

      俺觉得这因果之说最多算得上“从起点和终点的统计学规律之说”。这个统计规律是建立在过去的条件下发生过的事件,其概率或许高于85%。有性急马虎的人进一步简化这个规律,用两点做一直线,给出了所谓的“因果论”,也就是一把钥匙开一把锁。

      事实上,在人类社会中相同事件的发生率很低,特别是发生事件的条件重复性更低。因此,因果报应说是绝对化以后的经验主义,不灵验。

    • 家园 可惜,邝言不在

      很想听听他从哲学的角度,是如何看这个问题的。

      想必他近来太忙了吧。

    • 家园 意识似可分离于肉体. 登在《柳叶刀》上的论文

      References

      [1] Pim van Lommel, et al, "Near Death Experience In Survivors of Cardiac Arrest: A Prospective Study in the Netherlands," THE LANCET &#8226; Vol 358 &#8226; December 15, 2001 , 2039-45. 3/6/02

      [2] READER’S DIGEST, August, 2003, (pgs.122-128)

      ----------------------------------------------------

      英文链接 for [2]

      http://www.dountoothers.org/afterlife.html

      中文翻译:

      在2001年出版的英国医学杂志《柳叶刀》中,荷兰心脏专家Pim van Lommel 重新讲述了一个濒死现象的事例。一个44岁的心脏病患者,已处于临床死亡状态。救护车把他急速送到医院,医生用振荡器重新启动他的心脏。护士取走了他的假牙,以便使呼吸道管能插进他的喉咙。当病情稳定后,这个人被送到特护病房。

      一周以后,这个病人看见了那个取走他假牙的护士,病人认出了他,尽管在前一次的相遇中,他是处于临床死亡的状态。

      “你从我的嘴里取走了我的假牙。”她对护士说,然后准确的描述了他的“脱离肉体的他”看到的详细情况。

      现代西方医学研究者已经不得不承认,“濒死经历”是由于大脑的功能紊乱引起的这一解释是不令人信服的,意识不仅仅只存在于大脑中。

      英国的Southampton 医院的研究者们在杂志《Resuscitation》中撰文称,11%的病人回忆大脑有无意识阶段。6%的从心脏病救活的人有“濒死经历”。Van Lommel 和英国学者的研究结果显示了意识可以独立于活动的大脑而存在。

      -----------------------------------------------

      1991年夏天,Pam Reynolds女士,一个家住亚特兰大的三个孩子的母亲,得了脑动脉血管堵塞,有生命危险。医生告诉她必须做手术。为使手术成功,需要停止她的大脑和心脏的功能。当Reynolds女士处于麻醉状态时,有各种仪器在监测她的脑干的功能,以及她的体温、心跳、呼吸和其它主要的生命参数。她的四肢被固定了,眼睛也被蒙上了。

      当医生打开她头颅时,Reynolds 女士感觉她“跳出”自己了的躯体,在高于手术医生肩膀的一个位置观察手术的过程。她发现医生拿着一个像电动牙刷的东西。一个女性的声音在抱怨病人的血管太小。Reynolds 女士觉得他们在给她的腹股沟部位做手术。“那一定不对”,她想,“这可是脑颅手术”。

      但即使Reynolds女士的眼睛和耳朵被蒙上和堵上, 她所观察的真实发生了。手术锯确实像电子牙刷。手术确实发生在她的腹股沟,因为必须把她的心脏和“心-肺机”用导管连在一起。

      医生把Reynolds的血液放干以便使她处于“休眠状态”。但从所有的控制仪器看,生命依然存在。Reynolds 女士发现她穿过一条通向光明的通道,在尽头,她看见了她的很久以前去世的祖母、亲戚和朋友。时间好像停止了。然后她的叔叔把她带向她的身体,并指示她回去。她像跳进了冰水中。当她苏醒后,Reynolds把她的经历告诉了医生。

      “那不是我,那只是我的身体”

      佛罗里达的内科专家,Barbara Rommer,在70年代早期遇到第一个“濒死经历”的病人。从1994起,她面谈了600多据报有“濒死经历”的人,并写成了一本书。下面是她记录的几个案例。

      Robert Milham 在一次心脏病发作中心脏停止了,“痛苦消失了,我停留在我的身体的上面。我看着我的身体躺着,他们把船桨放在我的身上”。经过了一个自私的一生,他说,他的经历使他变成了一个慷慨的人。

      企业家Ken Amick 在一次过敏反应中停止了呼吸,全身发蓝。“我可以看见颜色,我可以听到声音,我可以感觉到感情,如害怕和放松。那末,那个躺在桌之上的蓝色的东西是什么?那是我,我害怕看到他。但那不是我,那是我的身体。”

      ----------------------------------------------------

      • 家园 该文作者Lommel对Shermer在&lt;&lt;科学美国人&gt;&gt;的文章的回复

        外链出处

        A Reply to Shermer

        Medical Evidence for NDEs

        Pim van Lommel

        The Background

        In his "Skeptic" column in Scientific American in March, 2003, Michael Shermer cited a research study published in The Lancet, a leading medical journal, by Pim van Lommel and colleagues. He asserted this study "delivered a blow" to the idea that the mind and the brain could separate. Yet the researchers argued the exact opposite, and showed that conscious experience outside the body took place during a period of clinical death when the brain was flatlined. As Jay Ingram, of the Canadian Discovery Channel, commented: "His use of this study to bolster his point is bogus. He could have said, 'The authors think there's a mystery, but I choose to interpret their findings differently'. But he didn't. I find that very disappointing" (Toronto Star, March 16, 2003). Here, Pim van Lommel sets out the evidence that Shermer misrepresented.

        --------------------------

        A Reply to Shermer

        Medical Evidence for NDEs

        Dr. Pim van Lommel

        Only recently someone showed me the "Skeptic" article* by Michael Shermer. From a well respected and, in my opinion, scientific journal like the Scientific American I always expect a well documented and scientific article, and I don’t know how thoroughly peer-reviewed the article from Shermer was by the editorial staff before publication. My reaction to this article by Shermer is because I am the main author of the study published in The Lancet, December 2001, entitled: “Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest; a prospective study in the Netherlands”. About what he writes about the conclusions from our study, as well as from the effect of magnetic and electrical “stimulation” of the brain, forces me to write this paper, because I disagree with his theories as well as with his conclusions.

        We performed our prospective study in 344 survivors of cardiac arrest to study the frequency, the cause and the content of near-death experience (NDE). A near-death experience is the reported memory of all impressions during a special state of consciousness, including specific elements such as out-of-body experience, pleasant feelings, and seeing a tunnel, a light, deceased relatives, or a life review. In our study 282 patients (82%) did not have any memory of the period of unconsciousness, 62 patients (18%) however reported a NDE with all the “classical” elements. Between the two groups there was no difference in the duration of cardiac arrest or unconsciousness, intubation, medication, fear of death before cardiac arrest, gender, religion, education or foreknowledge about NDE. More frequent NDE was reported at age younger than 60 years, more than one cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) during hospital stay, and previous NDE. Patients with memory defects after lengthy and complicated CPR reported less frequent NDE.

        There are several theories that should explain the cause and content of NDE. The physiologic explanation: the NDE is experienced as a result of anoxia in the brain, possibly also caused by release of endomorphines, or NMDA receptor blockade.

        In our study all patients had a cardiac arrest, they were clinically dead, unconscious, caused by insufficient blood supply to the brain because of inadequate blood circulation, breathing, or both. If in this situation CPR is not started within 5-10 minutes, irreparable damage is done to the brain and the patient will die. According to this theory, all patients in our study should have had an NDE, they all were clinical dead due to anoxia of the brain caused by inadequate blood circulation to the brain, but only 18% reported NDE.

        The psychological explanation: NDE is caused by fear of death. But in our study only a very small percentage of patients said they had been afraid the seconds preceding the cardiac arrest, it happened too suddenly to realize what occurred to them. However, 18 % of the patients reported NDE. And also the given medication made no difference.

        We know that patients with cardiac arrest are unconscious within seconds, but how do we know that the electro-encephalogram (EEG) is flat-lined in those patients, and how can we study this?

        Complete cessation of cerebral circulation is found in cardiac arrest due to ventricular fibrillation (VF) during threshold testing at implantation of internal defibrillators. This complete cerebral ischaemic model can be used to study the result of anoxia of the brain.

        In VF complete cardiac arrest occurs, with complete cessation of cerebral flow, and resulting in acute pancerebral anoxia. The Vmca, the middle cerebral artery blood flow, which is a reliable trend monitor of the cerebral blood flow, decreases to 0 cm/sec immediately after the induction of VF (2). Through many studies in human, as well as in animal models, cerebral function has been shown to be severely compromised during cardiac arrest and electric activity in both cerebral cortex and the deeper structures of the brain has been shown to be absent after a very short period of time. Monitoring of the electric activity of the cortex (EEG) has shown ischaemic changes consisting of a decrease of fast high amplitude waves and an increase of slow delta waves, and sometimes also an increase in amplitude of theta activity, progressively and ultimately declining to isoelectricity. More often initial slowing (attenuation) of the EEG waves is the first sign of cerebral ischaemia. The first ischaemic changes in the EEG are detected an average of 6.5 seconds after circulatory arrest. With prolongation of the cerebral ischaemia always a progress to an isoelectric (flat) line is monitored within 10 to 20 (mean 15) seconds from the onset of the cardiac arrest (3-6).

        In case of a prolonged cardiac arrest of more than 37 seconds the EEG activity may not return for many minutes to hours after cardiac arrest has been restored, depending of the duration of cardiac arrest, in spite of the maintenance of adequate blood pressure during the recovery phase. After defibrillation the middle cerebral artery flow velocity recurred rapidly within 1-5 seconds regardless the arrest duration. However, the EEG recovery takes more time, depending of the duration of cardiac arrest. EEG recovery underestimates metabolic recovery of the brain, and cerebral oxygen uptake may be depressed for a considerable time after restoration of circulation because the initial overshoot on reperfusion (hyperoxia) is followed by a significant decrease in cerebral blood flow. (7)

        Anoxia causes loss of function of our cell systems. However, in anoxia of only some minute’s duration this loss may be transient, in prolonged anoxia cell death occurs with permanent functional loss. During an embolic event a small clot obstructs the blood flow in a small vessel of the cortex, resulting in anoxia of that part of the brain with loss of electrical activity. This results in a functional loss of the cortex like hemiplegia or aphasia. When the clot is resolved or broken down within several minutes the lost cortical function is restored. This is called a transient ischaemic attack (TIA). However, when the clot obstructs the cerebral vessel for minutes to hours it will result in neuronal cell death with a permanent loss of function of this part of the brain, with persistent hemiplegia or aphasia, and the diagnosis of cerebro vascular accident (CVA) is made. So transient anoxia results in transient loss of functions.

        In cardiac arrest global anoxia of the brain occurs within seconds. Timely and adequate CPR reverses this functional loss of the brain because definitive damage of the brain cells, resulting in cell death, has been prevented. Long lasting anoxia, caused by cessation of blood flow to the brain for more than 5-10 minutes, results in irreversable damage and extensive cell death in the brain. This is called brain death, and most patients will ultimately die.

        In acute myocardial infarction the duration of cardiac arrest (VF) on the CCU is usually 60-120 seconds, on the cardiac ward 2-5 minutes, and in out-of-hospital arrest it usually exceeds 5-10 minutes. Only during threshold testing of internal defibrillators or during electro physiologic stimulation studies will the duration of cardiac arrest hardly exceed 30-60 seconds.

        From these studies we know that in our prospective study of patients that have been clinically dead (VF on the ECG) no electric activity of the cortex of the brain (flat EEG) must have been possible, but also the abolition of brain stem activity like the loss of the corneareflex, fixed dilated pupils and the loss of the gag reflex is a clinical finding in those patients. However, patients with an NDE can report a clear consciousness, in which cognitive functioning, emotion, sense of identity, and memory from early childhood was possible, as well as perception from a position out and above their “dead” body. Because of the sometimes reported and verifiable out-of -body experiences, like the case of the dentures reported in our study, we know that the NDE must happen during the period of unconsciousness, and not in the first or last second of this period.

        So we have to conclude that NDE in our study was experienced during a transient functional loss of all functions of the cortex and of the brainstem. It is important to mention that there is a well documented report of a patient with constant registration of the EEG during cerebral surgery for an gigantic cerebral aneurysm at the base of the brain, operated with a body temperature between 10 and 15 degrees, she was put on the heart-lung machine, with VF, with all blood drained from her head, with a flat line EEG, with clicking devices in both ears, with eyes taped shut, and this patient experienced an NDE with an out-of-body experience, and all details she perceived and heard could later be verified. (8)

        There is also a theory that consciousness can be experienced independently from the normal body-linked waking consciousness. The current concept in medical science states that consciousness is the product of the brain. This concept, however, has never been scientifically proven. Research on NDE pushes us at the limits of our medical concepts of the range of human consciousness and the relationship between consciousness and memories with the brain.

        For decades, extensive research has been done to localize memories inside the brain, so far without success. In connection with the hypothesis that consciousness and memories are stored inside the brain the question also arises how a non-material activity such as concentrated attention or thinking can correspond with a visible (material) reaction in the form of a measurable electrical, magnetic and chemical activity at a certain place in the brain. Different mental activities give rise to changing patterns of activity in different parts of the brain. This has been shown in neurophysiology through EEG, magneto-encephalogram (MEG) and at present also through magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) and positron emission tomography (PET-scan). (9-11) Also an increase in cerebral blood flow is observed during such a non-material activity like thinking (12). It is also not well understood how it is to be explained that in a sensory experiment following a physical sensation the person involved in the test stated that he was aware (conscious) of the sensation a few thousands of a second following the stimulation, while the subject’s brain showed that neuronal adequacy wasn’t achieved until after a full 500 msec. following the sensation. This experiment has led to the so-called delay-and-antedating hypothesis (13).

        Most body cells, and especially all neurons, show an electrical potential across cell membranes, formed by the presence of a metabolic Na/K pump. Transportation of information along neurons happens by means of action potentials, differences in membrane potential caused by synaptic depolarisation (excitatory) and hyperpolarisation (inhibitory). The sum total of changes along neurons causes transient electric fields, and therefore also transient magnetic fields, along the synchronously activated dendrites. Not the number of neurons, the precise shape of the dendrites (dendritic tree), nor the accurate position of synapses, neither the firing of individual neurons is crucial, but the derivative, the fleeting electric and/or magnetic fields generated along the dendrites. These should be shaped as optimally as possible into short-lasting meaningful patterns, constantly changing in four-dimensional shape and intensity (self-organization), and constantly mutually interacting between all neurons. This process can be considered as a biological quantum coherence phenomenon.

        The influence of external localized magnetic and electric fields on these constant changing electric and/or magnetic fields during normal function of the brain should now be mentioned.

        Neurophysiological research is being performed using transcranial magnetic stimulation (TMS), in the course of which a localized magnetic field (photons) is produced. TMS can excite or inhibit different parts of the brain, depending of the amount of energy given, allowing functional mapping of cortical regions, and creation of transient functional lesions. It allows assessing the function in focal brain regions on a millisecond scale, and it can study the contribution of cortical networks to specific cognitive functions. TMS is a non-invasive research tool to study aspects of human brain physiology including motor function, vision, language, and the pathophysiology of brain disorders as well as mood disorders like depression, and it even may be useful for therapy. In studies TMS can interfere with visual and motion perception, it gives an interruption of cortical processing with an interval of 80-100 milliseconds. Intracortical inhibition and facilitation are obtained by paired-pulse studies with TMS, and reflect the activity of interneurons in the cortex. Also TMS can alter the functioning of the brain beyond the time of stimulation, but it does not appear to leave any lasting effect. (14).

        Interrupting the electrical fields of local neuronal networks in parts of the cortex also disturbs the normal function of the brain, because by localized electrical stimulation of the temporal and parietal lobe during surgery for epilepsy the neurosurgeon and Nobel prize winner W. Penfield could sometimes induce flashes of recollection of the past (never a complete life review), experiences of light, sound or music, and rarely a kind of out-of-body experience. These experiences did not produce any transformation.(15-16) After many years of research he finally reached the conclusion that it is not possible to localize memories inside the brain. Olaf Blanke also recently described in Nature a patient with induced OBE by inhibition of cortical activity caused by more intense external electrical stimulation of the gyrus angularis in a patient with epilepsy (17).

        The effect of the external magnetic or electrical stimulation is dependent of the amount of energy given. There may be no clinical effect or sometimes stimulation is seen when only a small amount of energy is given, for instance during stimulation of the motoric cortex. But during “stimulation” with higher energy inhibition of local cortical functions occurs by extinction of the electrical and magnetic fields resulting in inhibition of local neuronal networks (personal communication Blanke). Also in the patient described by Blanke in Nature stimulation with higher electric energy was given, resulting in inhibition of the function of the local neuronal networks in the gyrus angularis.

        And when for instance the occipital visual cortex is stimulated by TMS, this results not in a better sight, but instead it causes temporary blindness by inhibition of this part of the cortex. We have to conclude that localized artificial stimulation with real photons (electrical or magnetic energy) disturb and also inhibit the constant changing electrical and magnetic fields of our neuronal networks, and so influence and inhibit the normal function of our brain.

        In trying to understand this concept of mutual interaction between the “invisible and not measurable” consciousness, with its enormous amount of information, and our visible, material body it seems wise to compare it with modern worldwide communication.

        There is a continuous exchange of objective information by means of electromagnetic fields (real photons) for radio, TV, mobile telephone, or laptop computer. We are unaware of the innumerable amounts of electromagnetic fields that constantly, day and night, exist around us and through us as well as through structures like walls and buildings. We only become aware of these electromagnetic informational fields the moment we use our mobile telephone or by switching on our radio, TV or laptop. What we receive is not inside the instrument, nor in the components, but thanks to the receiver the information from the electromagnetic fields becomes observable to our senses and hence perception occurs in our consciousness. The voice we hear in our telephone is not inside the telephone. The concert we hear in our radio is transmitted to our radio. The images and music we hear and see on TV is transmitted to our TV set. The internet is not located inside our laptop. We can receive at about the same time what is transmitted with the speed of light from a distance of some hundreds or thousands of miles. And if we switch off the TV set, the reception disappears, but the transmission continues. The information transmitted remains present within the electromagnetic fields. The connection has been interrupted, but it has not vanished and can still be received elsewhere by using another TV set. Again, we do not realize us the thousands of telephone calls, the hundreds of radio and TV transmissions, as well as the internet, coded as electromagnetic fields, that exist around us and through us.

        Could our brain be compared with the TV set that electromagnetic waves (photons) receives and transforms into image and sound, as well as with the TV camera that image and sound transforms into electromagnetic waves (photons)? This electromagnetic radiation holds the essence of all information, but is only conceivable to our senses by suited instruments like camera and TV set.

        The informational fields of our consciousness and of our memories, both evaluating by our experiences and by the informational imput from our sense organs during our lifetime, are present around us as electrical and/or magnetic fields [possible virtual photons? (18)], and these fields only become available to our waking consciousness through our functioning brain and other cells of our body.

        So we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. And as soon as the function of brain has been lost, like in clinical death or in brain death, with iso-electricity on the EEG, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the reception ability is lost. People can experience their consciousness outside their body, with the possibility of perception out and above their body, with identity, and with heightened awareness, attention, well-structured thought processes, memories and emotions. And they also can experience their consciousness in a dimension where past, present and future exist at the same moment, without time and space, and can be experienced as soon as attention has been directed to it (life review and preview), and even sometimes they come in contact with the “fields of consciousness” of deceased relatives. And later they can experience their conscious return into their body.

        Michael Shermer states that, in reality, all experience is mediated and produced by the brain, and that so-called paranormal phenomena like out-of body experiences are nothing more than neuronal events. The study of patients with NDE, however, clearly shows us that consciousness with memories, cognition, with emotion, self-identity, and perception out and above a life-less body is experienced during a period of a non-functioning brain (transient pancerebral anoxia). And focal functional loss by inhibition of local cortical regions happens by “stimulation” of those regions with electricity (photons) or with magnetic fields (photons), resulting sometimes in out-of-body states.

        To quote Michael Shermer: it is the job of science to solve those puzzles with natural, rather than supernatural, explanations. But one has to be aware of the progress of science, and to study recent literature, to know what is going on in current science. For me science is asking questions with an open mind, and not being afraid to reconsider widely accepted but scientifically not proven concepts like the concept that consciousness and memories are a product of the brain. But also we should realize that we need a functioning brain to receive our consciousness into our waking consciousness. There are still a lot of mysteries to solve, but one has not to talk about paranormal, supernatural or pseudoscience to look for scientific answers on the intriguing relation between consciousness and memories with the brain.

        * Michael Shermer, 'Demon-Haunted Brain' Scientific American, page 25, March 2003.

        References

        1 Van Lommel W., Van Wees R., Meyers V., Elfferich I. Near-death experience in survivors of cardiac arrest: a prospective study in the Netherlands. The Lancet 2001; 358: 2039-2045.

        2 Gopalan KT, Lee J, Ikeda S, Burch CM. Cerebral blood flow velocity during repeatedly induced ventricular fibrillation. J. Clin. Anesth. 1999 Jun; 11 (4): 290-5.

        3 De Vries JW, Bakker PFA, Visser GH, Diephuis JC, Van Huffelen AC Changes in cerebral oxygen uptake and cerebral electrical activity during defibrillation threshold testing. Anesth. Analg. 1998; 87: 16-20

        4 Clute H, Levy WJ. Elecroencephalographic changes during brief cardiac arrest in humans. Anesthesiology 1990; 73 : 821-825

        5 Losasso TJ, Muzzi DA, Meyer FB, Sharbrough FW. Electroencephalographic monitoring of cerebral function during asystole and successful cardiopulmonary resuscitation. Anesth. Analg. 1992; 75: 1021-4.

        6 Parnia S, Fenwick P. Near death experiences in cardiac arrest: visions of a dying brain or visions of a new science of consciousness. Review article. Resuscitation 2002; 52: 5-11

        7 Smith DS, Levy W, Maris M, Chance B Reperfusion hyperoxia in brain after circulatory arrest in humans . Anesthesiology 1990; 73 : 12-19

        8 Sabom M.B. Light and Death: One Doctors Fascinating Account of Near-Death Experiences. “The Case of Pam Reynolds” in chapter 3: Death: the Final Frontier, (37-52). Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, USA. 1998.

        9 Desmedt J.E., Robertson D. Differential enhancement of early and late components of the cerebral somatosensory evoked potentials during forced-paced cognitive tasks in man. Journal of Physiology 1977; 271: 761-782.

        10 Roland P.E., Friberg L. Localization in cortical areas activated by thinking. Journal of Neurophysiology 1985; 53: 1219-1243.

        11 Eccles J.C. The effect of silent thinking on the cerebral cortex. Truth Journal, International Interdisciplinary Journal of Christian Thought. 1988; Vol 2.

        12 Roland P.E. Somatotopical tuning of postcentral gyrus during focal attention in man. A regional cerebral blood flow study. Journal of Neurophysiology 1981; 46: 744-754.

        13 Libet B. Subjective antedating of a sensory experience and mind-brain theories: Reply to Honderich (1984). Journal of Theoretical Biology 1985; 144: 563-570.

        14 Hallett M. Transcranial magnetic stimulation and the human brain. Nature 2000; 406: 147-150.

        15 Penfield W. The Excitable Cortex in Conscious Man. Liverpool: Liverpool University Press, 1958.

        16 Penfield W. The Mystery of the Mind. Princeton University Press, Princeton. 1975

        17 Blanke O., Ortigue S., Landis Th., Seeck M. Stimulating illusory own-body perceptions. The part of the brain that can induce out-of-body experiences has been located. Nature 2002, 419: 269-270.

        18 Romijn, H. Are virtual photons the elementary carriers of consciousness? Journal of Consciousness Studies, 2002; 9: 61-81.

        关键词(Tags): #濒死体验
        • 家园 偶把它的头尾部份翻成了中文, 见内:

          背景资料

          在他的刊登于2003年3月<<科学美国人>>"怀疑者"专栏里, Michael Shermer引用了由Pim van Lommel和同事们登载于一个一流医学期刊<<柳叶刀>>的研究报告. Shermer断言这项研究给予认为大脑和意识能分离的观点致命一击. 然而那些研究人员的评论恰恰相反, 他们表示那些在体外有清醒意识的经历是在脑死以后发生的. 正如加拿大"发现"频道的Jay Ingram评论道:"Shermer用那些研究来支持他自己的观点简直是无稽. 他本应该说:'那些作者们认为有神秘难解的实验现象, 然而我有不同的诠释.' 但他没这么说. 我对此深感失望."(Toronto Star, March 16, 2003) 这儿, Pim van Lommel详细阐述了被Shermer所误传的那些实验证据.

          ---------------------

          答复Shermer

          濒死经历的医学证据

          Dr. Pim van Lommel

          只在最近才有人给我看了Shermer写的那篇"怀疑者"文章[1]. 我认为象<<科学美国人>>这样有良好声誉的期刊总该刊登著述严谨的学术论文, 我不知道Shermer的那篇文章在刊载前经过了多么仔细的同行审议. 我写对他那篇文章的回答是因为我是登于2001年11月<<柳叶刀>>的"心搏停止的幸存者们的濒死经历:在荷兰的调查研究"一文的主要作者. 他所写的有关我们的研究结论, 以及对大脑的磁、电刺激的效果,迫使我写这篇答复,因为我不同意他的理论及其结论。

          [1] Michael Shermer, 'Demon-Haunted Brain' Scientific American, page 25, March 2003.

          我们对344个心搏停止的幸存者作了调查, 用以研究濒死经历的频率,原因,以及内容. 濒死经历(NDE)是指对于某种意识的特殊状态的各种印象的记忆. 这些印象包括: 离体经历, 愉悦感, 看到隧道, 光, 已故的亲人, 或对这一生的播映. 在我们的研究中, 282个病人(82%)没有对失去知觉的那段时间有任何回忆, 然而62人(18%)报告了包含所有经典特征的NDE. 这两组病人的心搏停止或失去知觉,插管,以及用药的时间, 性别,宗教,教育程度,对死亡的恐惧,对NDE先前的了解,等等因素都没有什么区别. 以下的几种情况有更大概率报告NDE: 60岁以下的病人, 住院期间多于一次的CPR, 先前有过NDE. 病人在费时长且复杂的CPR后若有记忆损伤,则报导NDE的可能性会减小.

          现在有几种理论可以解释NDE的原因及内容. 生理学的解释是: NDE是由于大脑缺氧,或许还伴随有内吗啡以及NMDA受体阻隔剂的分泌.

          我们的研究中,所有病人都已临床死亡或失去知觉,这是由于大脑的供血不足所导致的. 如果在这种状况下,没有在5-10分钟内施以CPR急救, 那么大脑将会受到不可修复的损伤,病人就会死亡. 根据这个理论,我们研究中的所有病人都应有NDE, 因为他们都已由于大脑缺氧而临床死亡, 但只有18%的人报告了NDE.

          心理学解释: NDE是由对死亡的恐惧所导致的. 但我们的研究中, 只有极少数的病人说他们在心搏停止前的几秒内 有过恐惧, 因为这发生得太快了, 以至于根本没时间去意识到发生了什么. 然而有18%的人报告了NDE, 急救中用没用药 没有区别.

          ... (文章太长了, 先略去翻译. 跳到结尾) ...

          Michael Shermer声称, 事实上,所有思维的经历都由大脑调控,由大脑产生, 象离体体验那样的所谓超常现象不过是神经元的活动. 然而, 对有NDE的病人的研究清楚地表明: 在毫无大脑机能的那段时间中, 拥有{记忆,认知,情绪,自我身份,脱离并悬浮于没有生命的身体之上的感觉}的意识依然可被体察到. 对某些大脑区域的磁,电刺激会抑制这些脑区,从而导致聚焦功能的丧失. 有些时候,这也会产生离体体验.

          引用Shermer所言:"科学的任务是用自然,而不是超自然的解释来解答这些难题." 但是, 人们必须随时了解科学的进展, 学习最新的文献, 才能知道当今的科学都有些什么动态. 对我而言, 科学是以开放的心智来问问题, 不害怕重新考虑那些被广泛地接受但尚未被科学地验证的概念, 譬如: 意识和记忆仅仅是大脑的产品. 我们还应该认识到, 我们需要一个有功效的大脑,才能把我们的意识吸纳进我们日常的清醒意识. 有好多神秘的问题悬而未决, 但人们不是非得谈论超正常,超自然,或伪科学,来寻找关于大脑和意识及记忆的迷人的联系的科学解答.

          关键词(Tags): #意识#大脑

          本帖一共被 1 帖 引用 (帖内工具实现)
      • 家园 偶水平不够,看完柳叶刀的全文,没发现与灵魂有任何关系

        全文如下:http://www.zarqon.co.uk/Lancet.pdf

        • 家园 详见内...

          首先向11兄致歉, 先前小僧用词确有不严谨之处, 我已将"灵魂"改正为"意识".

          ------------------------------

          2041页 左下角起:

          During the pilot phase in one of the hospitals, a

          coronary-care-unit nurse reported a veridical out-ofbody

          experience of a resuscitated patient:

          “During a night shift an ambulance brings in a 44-

          year-old cyanotic, comatose man into the coronary care

          unit. He had been found about an hour before in a

          meadow by passers-by. After admission, he receives

          artificial respiration without intubation, while heart

          massage and defibrillation are also applied. When we

          want to intubate the patient, he turns out to have

          dentures in his mouth. I remove these upper dentures

          and put them onto the ‘crash car’. Meanwhile, we

          continue extensive CPR. After about an hour and a half

          the patient has sufficient heart rhythm and blood

          pressure, but he is still ventilated and intubated, and he

          is still comatose. He is transferred to the intensive care

          unit to continue the necessary artificial respiration. Only

          after more than a week do I meet again with the patient,

          who is by now back on the cardiac ward. I distribute his

          medication. The moment he sees me he says: ‘Oh, that

          nurse knows where my dentures are’. I am very

          surprised. Then he elucidates: ‘Yes, you were there

          when I was brought into hospital and you took my

          dentures out of my mouth and put them onto that car, it

          had all these bottles on it and there was this sliding

          drawer underneath and there you put my teeth.’ I was especially amazed because I remembered this happening while the man was in deep coma and in the process of CPR. When I asked further, it appeared the man had seen himself lying in bed, that he had perceived from above how nurses and doctors had been busy with CPR. He was also able to describe correctly and in detail the small room in which he had been resuscitated as well as the appearance of those present like myself. At the time that he observed the situation he had been very much afraid that we would stop CPR and that he would die. And it is true that we had been very negative about the patient’s prognosis due to his very poor medical

          condition when admitted. The patient tells me that he

          desperately and unsuccessfully tried to make it clear to

          us that he was still alive and that we should continue

          CPR. He is deeply impressed by his experience and says

          he is no longer afraid of death. 4 weeks later he left

          hospital as a healthy man.”

          2043页左栏:

          Discussion

          Our results show that medical factors cannot account for occurrence of NDE; although all patients had been clinically dead, most did not have NDE. Furthermore, seriousness of the crisis was not related to occurrence or depth of the experience. If purely physiological factors resulting from cerebral anoxia caused NDE, most of our patients should have had this experience. Patients’medication was also unrelated to frequency of NDE. Psychological factors are unlikely to be important as fear was not associated with NDE.

          2044页左栏:

          Several theories have been proposed to explain NDE.

          We did not show that psychological, neurophysiological,

          or physiological factors caused these experiences after

          cardiac arrest. Sabom22 mentions a young American

          woman who had complications during brain surgery for

          a cerebral aneurysm. The EEG of her cortex and

          brainstem had become totally flat. After the operation, which was eventually successful, this patient proved to have had a very deep NDE, including an out-of-body experience, with subsequently verified observations during the period of the flat EEG.

          [...]

          Thus, induced experiences are not identical to NDE,...

          With lack of evidence for any other theories for NDE,

          the thus far assumed, but never proven, concept that

          consciousness and memories are localised in the brain

          should be discussed. How could a clear consciousness

          outside one’s body be experienced at the moment that

          the brain no longer functions during a period of clinical

          death with flat EEG?22 Also, in cardiac arrest the EEG

          usually becomes flat in most cases within about 10 s

          from onset of syncope.29,30 Furthermore, blind people

          have described veridical perception during out-of-body

          experiences at the time of this experience.31 NDE pushes

          at the limits of medical ideas about the range of human

          consciousness and the mind-brain relation.

          此文虽然没有explicitly提出意识可以和肉身分离的假说, 但几乎排除了别的解释, thus implying 意识可能可以和肉身分离. 除非您能提出更合理的解释.

          • 家园 柳叶刀这篇评论

            To answer these fundamental questions, research should be focused on specific elements of the NDE, such as out-of-body experiences and other verifiable aspects. Finally, the theory and background of transcendence should be included as a part of an explanatory framework for these experiences,这段话,我没理解错的话,transcendence只是应该考虑的一种可能解释吧。

            大师对柳叶刀这篇评论有何高见?

            Comments about the Dutch Study From a Family Doctor Who is also a Near-Death Experiencer

            by Pam Kircher, M.D.

            Van Lommel's article in Lancet is a landmark that should be read by every doctor. It reports on the largest prospective study to ask people about NDEs after a cardiac arrest. Its results show that NDEs are a significant phenomenon in the setting of cardiac arrest. Equally important, the study followed people for eight years after their NDE. The observations gleaned from that follow-up demonstrate that NDEs really are life transforming, and that the transformation in values is consistent over time. The study showed that NDEs create much greater changes in a person's life than does simply having a cardiac arrest or being near death.

            Family doctors may not be the physicians present at the time of cardiac arrest, but they are the doctors people usually talk to the most, because they are the doctors people go to most often for a variety of problems. I would encourage Vital Signs readers to obtain the complete Lancet article to share with your doctor. You will be doing your family doctor a great favor. Basically, we doctors change our minds about diagnoses and treatments because of articles in medical journals.

            When people read van Lommel's article, they are often drawn to one or two items in his vast array of findings. I have mentioned the major ones in my first paragraph. Near the end of the summary on this page, Dr. Greyson addresses the question of false memories, which the Lancet commentary brought up regarding patients who later recalled an NDE they hadn't initially reported on. For me, the most fascinating statistic in van Lommel's article has to do with predictors of death in the 30 days following cardiac arrest. Each person in the study was very ill or they would not have had a cardiac arrest. Statistically, it is quite common to die soon after a cardiac arrest, particularly if it occurred as the result of a chronic medical condition. In his study, Dr. van Lommel measured the depth of the NDE by using Kenneth Ring's scale. People who had more of certain aspects of the NDE (e.g., tunnels, light, life reviews) were labeled core experiencers. Having a core experience was a predictor of death over the next 30 days at a probability of .0001. That means that there is a 1-in-10,000 chance that those results would have occurred by chance alone. Why would that be?

            Two very different hypotheses come to mind. One is that people with very deep experiences might be so taken with the experience that they simply allowed themselves to slip over to the other side. (The will to live is crucial in people who are extremely ill. Though it doesn't predict whether or not the person will die, it can have a bearing on when their death occurs. For example, people who are terminally ill frequently put off their own deaths until after they have finished waiting for an important day such as their daughter's wedding.) The sense of what lies ahead of NDErs may be so peaceful, that they simply complete unfinished business here and then let go into death. Another possible interpretation of the data, however, is that the depth of the NDE may be related to the severity of the illness of the person. In a statistically precise study of NDErs, Dr. Bruce Greyson found that psychic abilities are more common after a core NDE (Theta, 11:26-29, 1983). Since we have not had studies until now that interviewed large numbers of people within 30 days of their NDEs, the reasons for the relationship between the depth of the NDE and impending death have not yet been identified.

            I believe that the findings in van Lommel's study challenge hospitals to ask people about their NDEs after a cardiac arrest. As it becomes common practice to invite resuscitated people to discuss their NDEs with health care personnel in the hospital, the relationship between having a core NDE and dying a short time later will become clearer. In addition, NDEs in resuscitated persons will be seen as a normal concomitant of the experience. Finally, I believe that people with NDEs will be able to adjust more easily to the changes that occur in their values, if they have some assistance with that from immediate caregivers while still in the hospital setting.

    • 家园 再八卦一下

      再厚着跟一下。 其实纳子所讲的问题,我也经常想,很多问题所谓差别都是因为尺度不同的问题。 

      1。 到底有没有颜色? 颜色是否为空?

      要从两个方面讲, 其一是颜色本身; 其二是我们的感观问题。 

      颜色本身只不过是光的不同波长而已。 而我们所能看到的波长也很窄。在具体颜色之间的波长也没有一个明确的界限。 

      我们的视觉神经正好是要能够区分这个波长区域的不同小区域, 反映给大脑,大脑分别命名为不同颜色。 不同人种对颜色的区分还是有微小差别的。

      所以, 真有颜色吗? 可以说有无限颜色,包括我们看到的和看不到的, 也可一说没有什么颜色,全是空啊。 

      所以科学的知识反而能用来理解一些“ 空” 的问题。

      2。 乱谈:时间的久远, 人感觉的短暂, 信仰, 和特异功能

      我们人生百年,关心的是不过是今天, 明天, 和后天发生到我们身上的事情。 因为这些近期的事情是能左右我们情绪的。而相比较时间的长河, 有多少人长叹过, 有有多少在长叹,还有多少人将要长叹, 我们到底为什么活着?所以我能理解不同人的不同信仰, 那是因为每个人选择面对或逃避这个问题时候,会有不同的选择,标准答案有吗?没见过。如果我们只是一张批着人皮的基因载体,WELL, 爱怎么着怎么着吧, 反正都不是我们的错, 赫赫。

      有人对特异功能不信, 只是因为很多骗子。 人区别其实很小,你看,有人上了一次当, 就把整个可能性推翻了,有人上了无数当,还是报持一中开放的心态。其实两着都没错,都是自身的基因所致, 都是一种保护本能。 

      我决得特异功能一点都不奇怪。 不就是你能看到我看不到的波长吗, 不就是你能听到我听不见的频率吗。不就是你很奇怪,能感觉到我脑字里的电波, 然后你还有了解码, 知道我在想什么。 

      试着想一下,如果能追上光速, 追上几千年,用一个巨大的镜子把孔夫子当年身上发的光聚起来再还原,你能说自己没看见他吗? 同理可证, 有些人说的话,在一些奇怪的人的身上能奇怪的存储下来, 然后某个时候释放出来,我们就看到所谓的鬼上身了。 当然, 这也只是一种可能性。 

      所想说的是, KEEP YOUR MIND OPEN, BECAUSE THIS WORLD IS FAR FROM BEING UNDERSTOOD。 IT IS FUN, AND HAVE FUN。 


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