主题：【原创】西藏暴乱真相----我和一个美对华研究问题专家的争论 -- 新长城

洋人的偏見基本是很難改變的，不過我們多了解一點資料就可以讓他們不敢太放肆。達賴在西方很有影響，因爲他很會用佛教來掩護他的政治目的。

看到一個英文的帖子，疑似藏獨支持者和華人佛教徒的來往辯駁，其中華人提出的一些資料觸動了達賴宗教地位的根本基礎，其中要點：

1。現在的達賴喇嘛不是真的達賴喇嘛，1-6世達賴喇嘛是真的，第六世達賴喇嘛以後的傳承就被人爲錯亂了，從第七世開始就不是真的了。因此現在這個政治喇嘛實際上根本不應該有他所宣稱的在藏傳佛教格魯派中的正統地位。

2。達賴喇嘛在西藏對其他佛教派別和領袖，包括他本身格魯派的其他重要領袖有迫害的行爲。

3。達賴喇嘛違背釋迦牟尼佛不干預政治的身教，和慈悲不殺的言教。

以上三點説明這個所謂達賴喇嘛不但不是真正的達賴喇嘛，實際上也根本不是一個真正的佛教徒。

詳細地請看原文，更多資料大家可以自己搜集：

1。

Tibetan Protests NYC Message List

Reply | Forward Message #2525 of 2539 < Prev | Next >

While I was in New York I attended two demonstrations by the Tibetan community: one at the Chinese Embassy and the other at the United Nations.

You can see the photos here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/janvanraay/sets/72157605844208924/

Warm wishes,

Jan

2。

Re: [pdxbpf] Tibetan Protests NYC

Hi, Jan,

You'd better have a through study of the past and today of Tibet as well as what Dalai Lama did before 1959. 95% of the Tibetan that time had nothing, even their lives were owned by monks and slaveowners headed by the fake Dalai Lama. The fake Dalai Lama and other slaveowners could buy, sell, kill and send slaves to other slaveowners as gifts at their will. The human rights of the majority Tibetan were totally ignored before 1959.

Be a true Buddist, please always bear in mind that Buddha never had the least intention to interfere with politics even when his family and all his tribe were to be slaughted. While the current Dalai Lama seems totally ignored Buddha's teaching and take politics as his first priority instead of practising Buddha's teaching and doctrines. And if you study the lineage of Dalai Lama, you will find it is actually a broken one.

And if you read Tibetan History by Tibetans, you can see records that the previous and current Dalai Lama launches against Lamas of other schools and his follow Tibetan in west Sichuan province of China. And religious persecution was not rare under their ruling. And even to rinpoches of the same Gelukpa school as his, the past two Dalai Lama showed no mercy at all. The 9th Panchen Lama's territory was invaded by Dalai Lama's troops and 9th Panchen Lama himself was exiled. And 5th Reting Rinpoche helped to put current Dalai Lama into power, while he was confined and killed secretly. And those lamas and monks who wanted to rescue Reting Rinpoche were cruelly cracked down by the troops of Dalai Lama.

Early in Yuan Dynasty of China, Tibet has become a part of China under the ruling of Khubilai Khan (1215 - 1294) . And in the following two dynasties, Ming and Qing, all Tibetan leaders admitted the China's sovereignty to Tibet. Even the current Dalai Lama was actually picked up and entitled by Chinese government that time. And Chinese Emperor of Qing Dynasty authorize Dalai Lama to reign the north Tibet with the capital city of Lhasa, and the Panchen Lama to reign the south Tibet with the capital city of Shigatse. While the 13th Dalai Lama invaded Panchen's territory and force Panchen to exile. And as to Xi Kang, the west part of Sichuan province of China, Tibetans there were never be ruled by any Tibetan King. Langdarma the last Tibetan emperor, who reigned from 838-841, he launched an anti-Buddhism campaign and many buddhists fled to Xikang to escape the persecution. And early since that era, Tibetan's in Xikang and Tibetan local regime were not friendly enough to each other. And even in 1930s, the current Dalai Lama wage a war against Tibetans in Xikang. And Nona Rinpoche of Nyingma school of Tibetan buddism went to Lhasa to make peace with Dalai Lama, but he was not well treated. Instead he was throw into prison for three years before his successful escape from Lhasa.

If you wish, you could find far more such historical records about Tibet and Tibetan Buddhism.

Best wishes.

Chu

3.

Re: [pdxbpf] Tibetan Protests NYC

Thank you for the Chinese view of Tibet's history. For those interested on seeing both the Tibetan history according to Tibet as well as the history according to China this site provides both views with little bias.

http://www.rangzen.com/history/views.htm

Thanks Chu for this interesting perspective. I had heard some of the Chinese propaganda but not this much before so I feel better informed in discussing it with my Chinese colleagues that still get all their information from the Chinese government. And I also now see why they hate the Dalia Lama. But I think as Buddhists the history is not that important, only the present. And at present the Tibetan people are suffering terrible hardship under China's rule. It is this current state that an engaged Buddhist should have concern for.

Thanks for the beautiful photos Jan.

-Terri

• 關於達賴喇嘛是否是藏傳佛教公認最高領袖的一點說明

4.

Re: Tibetan Protests NYC

Thank you Terri, you gives us again an perfect example of

misunderstanding of Buddhism as well as arrogency over history and

present of a country that you know little about. In buddist's point

of view, the present in even last second is history now. If you care

only the present, you should have not

respond to my post at all, which was HISTORY right at the time you

click to reply! So clearly this is only you excuse to justify your

biasd view towards Tibet and China, history and present. And you shall

not concern for so-called "suffering terrible hardship under China's

rule" , as it is HISTORY again when you know it. Cutting off history

could not give you a whole picture of Tibetan issue, it just let let

you feel plausibly right.

And I shall remind you that you shall follow Buddha himself instead

any other one if you admit you are a buddist. Again I shall draw you

attention to the fact that Buddha himself never intervene in any

political affairs even when his family and his whole tribe were to be

slaughtered.

I am also wondering how some westerners could have such unbelievable

gift for judging things happened in a piece of land they have never

been to and konwing little about. Actually most westerner rely on

others to feed them information the rest parts of the world as they

neither have been to there nor could collect information from there

themselve. So it is not rare that someone who could understand

neither Tibetan nor Chinese and has never put his foot on Tibet and

rest part of China accuses China of crimes that she did not commit at

all. There are always information and opinions from two sides. Based

on filtered second-hand information to reject one and embrace the

other does not comply with The Middle Way. There are millions of

official

and non-official documents and files testifying for China's

sovereignty over Tibet from the early 13th century in four official

languages that time, i.e.

Tibetan, Chinese, Mongolia and Manchu. And you can find many files

you could not see from English media such as why and how the Dalai

Lama lineage was broken after the 6th reincarnation in early 18th

century, the offical apprivals from Chinese governments entitling the

reincarnations of Dalai Lamas,

including the current one. And you could also find a full series of

the Dalai Lama's memorials to the throne in the past hundreds of

years. But unfortunately, most noisy westerm accusers could

understand non of those languages and simple turn a deaf ear to voices

from Tibet and China.

You would not likely to see such history and present of Tibet from

western media, and I believe most westerners don't have the least idea

how the old Tibetan codes allow slaveowners to buy & sell, punish

corporally, peel and kill slaves as they wish. And many westerners

don't know while they shout their concern to Tibetan people, the fact

that the current Dalai Lama used guts and organs from living slaves to

celebrate his birthday before he fled to India in 1959.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJ-yUIzA_OA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVBFy0fV_-w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ2h21ssWTE

And as to the present Tibetan, I need not to say much. Anyone who do

concern about Tibetan people, please go to Tibetan yourself and see

how they live now instead of put forward false accusation from a

country tens of thousands miles away from Tibet.

My suggestion to you and other fellow buddists is to concentrate on

buddism study and practising and stay away from politics as Buddha

himself did. Politics will distort our minds and pull us away from the

right path. And don't comment as you imagine about serious issues if

you actually know little about. As a sattva, an ordinary human being,

we could come to very wrong conclusion with limited secondhand

information.

5。

Re: [pdxbpf] Re: Tibetan Protests NYC

Thank you for your generous support of my practice. May wisdom and compassion prevail in this matter and the countless others that afflict our world. At least in this I think we can agree.

Peace in our time,

Terri

6。

Re: Tibetan Protests NYC

Yes, Terri, I do believe you and many others are endeavoring to bring

peace to this afflicted world. But politics is in no way the solution.

If politics

could bring peace to this world, Prince Gautama would have been a king

instead of Buddha. Let's follow Buddha's footprint and bring peace and

harmony to

our minds and the whole world.

And I also believe that most buddhists in western society are serious

about buddhism. But I wonder how they could have so much time to spend on

irrelevant matters like politics. In the oriental countries where

buddhism prevailing, serious buddhists shall study a full series of

Sutras and Upadesas

as well as long time practising of samadhi or Samatha & Vipasyanapass,

and then pass the examination of their gurus to ensure they do

understand the true

essence of Buddhism. Only after such strict training and practising, a

buddhist is qualified to help others in the right buddhism way.

Western buddhists

are fostered in a culture far away from buddhism, so it may be harder

for them to catch the exact meaning of Buddhism especially after

conversion of two

or even more languages. And one frustrating fact is, most western

buddhists have very limited acess to Tripitaka, which is known kept

only in Pali,

Tibetan and Chinese, not in English or any other western languages.

Without the guidence and proof from Tripitaka, they shall be less

confident of their understanding of buddhism than they are, and spend much more time on

study and practising rather than involving in politics, which is very

likely to leadordinary people go astray.

Many thanks to Terri, Jan and all reading the posts. Let's focus our

limited life on buddhism, learn harder and practise harder to expedite

the achievement of bodhi both for ourselves and for others.

• 關於達賴喇嘛是否是藏傳佛教公認最高領袖的一點說明

做工作踏踏实实，一点不沮丧。

有时间翻译一下吗？

我看那些人到现在还没有明白到底要干什么,我对那些人很失望.

我觉得政府应该干的是,

1)成立一个英文的电视台,总部放在香港,争取全球发言权.

2)成立一个类似美国的民主基金会的东西,为自己的全球利益服务.

我很推崇你的观点,骂达赖是治标不治本,直接指出西方人的虚伪和本质对事情最有帮助.

既然西方要求政教分离，为什么要支持达赖政教合一的诉求。同情藏传佛教不等于同意让喇嘛统治西藏。

其他的一些辩论用材料都是用一种歪曲事实的办法对付另外一种歪曲。西藏是中国元朝的一部分？说中国是蒙古帝国一部分更合理一些；释迦牟尼反对干涉政治？好像也没说过可以，也没说过不可以，释迦族本来就是王族，如果他们有反对宗教干涉的想法，也是和婆罗门政治斗争的产物。反对种姓阶级制度，所以才会有众生平等的教义。用释迦牟尼来反藏传佛教是非历史的（ahistorical)。就像西方人强调所谓的西藏文化传统，也是不顾历史流变，非历史的。而且真的要说基本教义，我看还是不要执着，不要起分别心为好，和尚即是喇嘛，喇嘛即是和尚。

不过说回来，从辩论的角度来说，那个回帖的中国人写得不错的。

其中要點，已經寫了。其他的可用google翻譯之類的看。不明白的我再答復。

我就一网残，笨得来的水平不是一般的高。

１。成吉思汗死後，他的子孫瓜分征服的地域，蒙哥忽必烈兄弟逐漸奄有全中國，遂為中國元朝皇帝。這個應該沒有異議。如果因他們是蒙古人，那麽同樣俄羅斯便可以因爲是當時窩濶台的勢力範圍也被說成是蒙古帝國的一部分了嗎？

再隋朝和李唐王朝，都是鮮卑人入主中原，難道隋唐也應改稱鮮卑帝國嗎？

２。釋迦牟尼不參與政治，是同佛法的宇宙觀世界觀人生觀出發。一般對佛法不了解的人很難理解。不過釋尊不但早年抛棄王位。即便在琉璃王滅釋種時，也並沒有利用他當時在印度的廣泛影響力來干預政治，甚至他的弟子目連要用神通阻止大屠殺，也被釋尊告以以往的因果而阻止了。　這絕對不是釋尊故作姿態，而是同佛法的根本見地和目標密切相關的。作爲内明的佛法，認爲外部世界的種種現象也都由於自身的煩惱而引起。解決自身的煩惱而外部世界的問題也隨之解決，相反則永無解脫的可能。所以真正的佛弟子不可能干預政治。

貼上你要翻譯的話，或輸入你要翻譯的網址，選好要翻譯的語言。

１.无论如何，忽必烈至少在名义上仍然是全蒙古大汗，真正的首都是喀拉和林。当然土地广阔，交通不便，这个蒙古帝国越来越松散。忽必烈及以后的大汗都自有蒙古称号，而汉化的皇帝庙号只是便于在中国统治。比如元朝末代皇帝在明朝称元顺帝，但是蒙古人是不接受的。说当时俄罗斯及中亚等地是蒙古帝国一部分，一点没错，只是后来蒙古人要么被赶走，要么被同化，帝国也就瓦解了。所以比较准确的讲法是汉地是蒙古帝国一部分或蒙古人的殖民地。蒙古人和以前的五胡乱华不同，一来其领土远远大于汉地，而来蒙古人也没有被完全汉化。即便徐达常遇春北伐，蒙古王公也可以退入和林而维持其一脉相承。其实这都不太重要，重要的是用所谓“自古以来”来说事，其实很没意思。蒙古人也可以用蒙元来说中国自古以来是蒙古领土，虽然可笑了点。

2。您就不要用神迹来说佛教了，听起来有悖佛教本意。

第一，若释尊真的热心政治，则其争取的目标应当是释迦族在那里的统治地位（有一点要指出，古代东部印度很多民族其实是黄种人，释迦族也是其一）而不是什么众生平等，应该是推翻婆罗门的统治地位并消灭他们才对。

第二，释迦牟尼本来就是国王，若释尊真的是把佛教当斗争工具，他为何会放弃王位，妻子和孩子，出走苦行呢？没有军事力量，宣传的又是众生平等慈悲为怀，也没见他拉拢政治军事大头（基督教后来就是这样一条路），他怎么个政治法？